I am tempted to reply to some of the blanket personal attacks against former employees or the whole “if you didn’t stop it, you deserved it” thing, because the baiting is so well-done, but it’s still just baiting. It’s not worth it.

However:

This thread is -not- an appropriate place to reveal specific dates, times, details. Those of us posting have left Apple, and most have put it all in our past. We made our choices, we are gone. Whether we reported things to HR, corporate or the government is irrelevant; we have no current claims. This is the past.

The -only reason- that anyone has shared their stories is to help define what the Alderwood store -might- be referring to as “abuse.” Someone asked, several people answered. It’s almost unheard of for ex-employees to really share this stuff; the fear of reprisal is still there, though it’s hard to imagine what Apple would do about it. I’m not sure if they can sue or not. Maybe. Who knows. Apple doesn’t seem afraid of suing over chatter on fan sites.

At the least, some of us still have fondness or respect for our co workers and management in spite of it all. Reference: The past. Some of us may have gotten over it, but it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and that we are required to either be silent about it or overly specific/activist about it. I’m not interested in bringing every detail to light or attempting to obtain some kind of retribution, and I am even less interested in opening myself up to more trouble from something long done.

That’s a battle for current employees to fight on their own, in the proper venues. If an entire store is actually so unhappy they’re planning a walk-out, then I can only surmise it’s more than just a few whiners. A few whiners with invalid complaints rarely have the influence to do this. That is, if it is true. There has been no confirmation. Anybody involved would be wise to hold their tongue and not post their information here. Anyone not involved has already moved on.

This is turning into a ridiculous childish argument with lots of finger pointing and accusations. If you don’t believe what has been posted, you have made that clear. We understand you do not believe. We comprehend your attacks. Thank you for your input. To the rest of us, there’s no reason for anyone to continue attempting to defend yourselves or answer to anonymous demands for details that may be much more trouble than they’re worth to provide. You will not change their minds – they are already ignoring whatever they don’t want to hear.

Likewise, for clarity, none of appear to be demanding Apple answer to -us- for anything. Realistically, we can’t ask for it even if we wanted to and Apple has no responsibility or reason to act in our favor.

I think all any of us ever wanted to do was to show our support for current employees who may be doing exactly what we did not have the courage or energy to do. I still support Apple and the retail stores and have high hopes for their continued success; I want this success to apply to the employees as well.

What people have stated in this thread are first hand experiences, which I can easily testify to. I’m all for investigation to reveal what has transpired, and I have first had accounts of abuses.

What have you got?

Nothing. Typical troll. Grow up kid.”

I’m not defending anyone. Rather, I’m attacking a bunch of juvenile whiners who think just because their experience working for Apple was terrible that Apple must be a terrible company and they must mistreat everyone. I’m also attacking this “me, me, me” mentality that someone owes you a job or a pleasant life.

Yes, there are a few people who stated first hand experiences — or claim to. But there’s absolutely no documentation, nor are there any facts other than “my boss is a big old meanie and I don’t like him”. If Apple were so frequently violating Federal law, why aren’t there any formal complaints? You know, the kind that actually gets investigated beyond listening to anonymous whiners. And why would these people continue to work for Apple if Apple is so evil? Clearly because they don’t have any marketable skills that would allow them to work elsewhere.

Nor has there been anything suggesting that the ‘problem’ is widespread. There are hundreds of Apple stores with hundreds of managers. No doubt there will be a few bad apples – no one has contested that. But why does Apple get tarred with this brush on the basis of a couple of bad managers.

When you have FACTS that can be substantiated, feel free to present them.

You may be confusing me with Joe Anonymous. I never said I didn’t work for Apple. I was a manager for nearly 5 years.

I don’t really care what you say you’ve seen. No one gets fired for being 2 minutes late. Say what you want, but unless you provide the paperwork that shows that, it’s all conjecture and hearsay. The people I fired for attendance issues were all chronic, just as it should be if you’re going down that road. Warning after warning – some people simply cannot get to work, or school, or anywhere on time. And that’s too bad for them. It’s too bad they were never called out on it at school, and if they were, it’s too bad that their parents called the school to bail them out by lying for them. That doesn’t work when you have a job.

I was telling ex-MG that HE doesn’t know what goes on behind closed doors, because he wasn’t a manager. I was. Is it YOU who needs to keep up? Or simply read more carefully? People who get fired rarely admit it when it’s their fault and tell all kinds of stories to make themselves feel better.

sumguy:

Blaming the victim? Geez, and I though I was a bleeding heart liberal. I simply advised that people need to stand up for themselves. If they don’t have the cajones to do so and stay in bad situations, they deserve what they get.

All I’ve heard here is conjecture. Let’s hear some real stories and see if they make any sense, or if it’s just a bunch of whiners. Leave out the names, but give specifics – real specifics. Dates, times, what was said, what the context was, etc. I defy anyone to do so here.

What people have stated in this thread are first hand experiences, which I can easily testify to. I’m all for investigation to reveal what has transpired, and I have first had accounts of abuses.

What have you got?

Nothing. Typical troll. Grow up kid.

Where’s the evidence? What we have is a handful of people whining anonymously on a forum – but who don’t have the gumption to even post an anonymous complaint with the government. No evidence, no facts, just “big, bad old Apple manager treated me badly”.

And when anyone asks for facts, they get accused of acting like a rapist or they’re told they have no business posting.

Again, there is no doubt that there some bad managers at Apple just like any major retailer. But there’s not one shred of evidence that Apple is as bad as the rest – and certainly none that they’re worse.

Amazing.

Foisting the blame back on those who were victimized is shallow and manipulative. You sound like a remorseless rapist when you talk like that.

Furthermore, I wish you’d be more accepting of the fact that a lot of these people fearing reprisal felt justified in keeping silent. No one should have to choose between getting paid and retaining their dignity.

And this brand of “fuck you. you knew what this was” attitude is EXACTLY why this thread is here to begin with. You’re not convincing anyone, Joe. Calling us babies doesn’t change a thing. All it does is prove what everyone’s already been saying.

how to be a manager is correct. He’s astoundingly astute with his satire. Maybe a little glib but he’s correct, none the less.

You sound exactly like the prototypical Apple manager and that’s no compliment.

I see. So this thread is exclusively for people who agree with you?

That’s BS – and is one further sign that you lack the maturity to discuss this.

I’m getting tired of hearing about all the labor law violations, as well. Why is it that no one can be specific? Why has no one filed a complaint? Filing a complaint for labor law violations is simple – and doesn’t cost a penny. It can be done anonymously, too. Why haven’t any been filed?

There are many thousands of Apple Store employees. The fact that a few want to whine about working conditions is hardly news. As soon as there’s some evidence that there’s a REAL problem rather than some whining, feel free to present it.

You have no business commenting in this thread, and your reply to Ex-MG is out of line. A former manager absolutely knows what goes on behind closed doors. And, if he or she disagrees with the rest on decisions, they are placed in that special place called the dead end. It’s either unanimous, or not, and believe me when I say, the store manager doesn’t accept anything less than unanimous.

“we fired”
You said you didn’t work for Apple, so either own up to it, or stop talking like you did.

“Policy violations, and attendance”
Now you sound like one of the bad Apples. I’ve seen people railroaded out of their job from being 2 minutes late. They document the slightest indiscretion in time, or policy, and police you, especially if you aren’t the top performer on the floor. It’s easier than coaching, and motivating the right way. I’ve also seen some horrible hires let go by this device, which should never be abused… rather, it was a poor hiring decision which should have been avoided.

“Known theft”
That’s not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is senseless bullying and inappropriate behaviors which are against labor laws. Try to keep up with the discussion.

“And what have you done about that?”
BIg words from someone who’s never worked at Apple.

Move on Troll.

“I honestly don’t know the answer to these questions, which is why I am asking because I never truly understood why my managers did the things they did. Not everyone that got canned was a bad employee. But I know that A LOT of people who had their career at Apple cut short were model employees and did a great job.”

Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what happens behind closed doors. You’d be amazed at how many people we fired for various reasons. Mostly it was policy violations like attendance. Next was known theft.

You also need to remember that many states are “at will” states, which means your employer needs NO reason to terminate your employment. Typically, Apple will follow their P&P to the letter to help ensure they don’t get sued for firing you, at will or not.

“So , let’s put one thing out there to begin with. Apple is breaking numerous labor laws all over the country with their treatment of employees, which, by the way, may also include managers.. The fact that no manager here has even tried to deny it tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong…”

And what have you done about that? Did you contact HR? Did you speak to your managers? If you didn’t, that’s on you, and no one else. If you feared reprisal, again that’s on YOU. It’s your responsibility to be sure you’re treated right. If you’re too scared to do so, then you need to grow up.

My store was full of professionals who were chosen for their expertise in a subject relevant to the product. Many had degrees and previous careers. Photographers, authors, musicians. And these were the specialists. Even the part-timers. Most of the part-time employees who weren’t already professionals were in university.

The assistant managers had often already managed their own store in the past.

The Geniuses that were hired at the time were all technical professionals with educations and strong careers outside of retail.

Almost universally, everyone was very bright, very motivated and very much already members of the “real world” by the time they joined Apple, which is why they were selected.

Does/did Apple even ever hire anyone without previous (“real world”) experience?

Also, hardly anyone is really complaining about pay. These are just convenient strawman arguments. Go ahead, set them up and knock then down, but it doesn’t change the original issues and arguments which you seem to ignore.

Back to the point of why the problem is so systemic…my theory on why this is a systemic problem is that GMs are motivated by two things: their desire to please by hitting the company’s aggressive metric goals, and money. Both are fairly simple motivations to understand; if they’re successful at meeting those goals they stand a better chance of getting promoted, if they don’t there’s probably a lot of explaining to do. Likewise, they have a financial stake in the store’s performance by way of their bonus structure.

Most managers probably start out with good intentions, but succumb to the pressure at some point and resort to at-any-cost tactics to get what the results Apple is looking for. If you look at the metric requirements Apple sets for the stores (50% One-to-One, 25% Mobile Me, etc), and the bare bones staffing most busy stores have, and it’s easy to see the pressure building up quick.

So maybe the problem isn’t strictly with the GM’s, but with Apple Retail as a whole. As I understand it, the original aim of the stores was to promote the brand and give customers the best shopping experience in the computer industry. Somewhere along the way it seems like Ron Johnson and company lost sight of that goal. Now Apple Retail is all about profit per square foot, selling attachments that a lot of customers don’t need or want because they’re profitable. In short, money became the goal rather than a byproduct of good service. And with that, Apple Retail became no more different than any other big box chain.

The personal attacks must stop. It dilutes the importance of this thread.

Those attacking the store Managers and Apple please refrain from personal attacks, calling someone a jerk, etc.. It proves nothing other than that you have run out of constructive arguments and at that point should probably leave the thread because you have lost your ability to argue on the points. I’m on your side guys. But getting personal accomplishes nothing and only plays into what the store management and Apple want us to do, discredit ourselves. Strangely enough, this is exactly what they did in the stores, rile you up and get you angry so you do or say something stupid which gives them the reason they need to discredit and shitcan you. Does the tactic sound familiar? You guys are falling for it.

So before you walk into it again, take a breath and realize that we are still right. Because no matter what a manager argues here, none of them seem to be able to properly argue or explain why they continue to engage in illegal and abusive activity.

For the Managers who are posting here, if the only arguments you can come up with are to respond with insults as well, then you are proving yourselves to be the people we have described you to be….

I’m trying to be fair reading this thread because, yes, I have never been in a manager position in the stores. So I/we don’t know what kind of pressure you are under or your point of view. So why don’t you try to explain it to us and help us understand instead of responding with childish insults. Here’s your opportunity to get the respect that you feel you’re not getting here. Make an argument and let’s see what happens..

Now with my comments so far:

I have not heard one argument that makes the illegal treatment of the employees make sense, other than that these are tried and true techniques that have proven to make a retail chain profitable. But aren’t there legal ways to do it? Is this what you want to be your personal legacy at Apple. “Well, I broke every law in the labor 101 manual and became the most despised individual among those I worked with. But at least I made a lot of money…” Criminal and tyrant..Is that what you wanted to be? I hope it’s worth it. I mean that sincerely. Because when the money is gone, that’s all you will have left behind..

So , let’s put one thing out there to begin with. Apple is breaking numerous labor laws all over the country with their treatment of employees, which, by the way, may also include managers.. The fact that no manager here has even tried to deny it tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong…

In addition, the bad managers know how they are treating their employees. So again, what justifies it? Is there no more positive way to get what you need from your employees without engaging in these tactics? Are you so under pressure to deliver that you have adopted an “at any cost” attitude of the ends justifying the means?

I honestly don’t know the answer to these questions, which is why I am asking because I never truly understood why my managers did the things they did. Not everyone that got canned was a bad employee. But I know that A LOT of people who had their career at Apple cut short were model employees and did a great job.

I have since moved on and currently run my own company and have my own employees. We can’t afford to pay our people a lot. But I can tell you, now that I am a boss, that positively motivating and genuinely inspiring your employees can make up for a lot of other shortcomings, such as low pay and long hours instead of using fear, lies and intimidation. I know it’s harder than doing it other way. But doing the right thing usually is..

What I do hear from the defenders of management in this thread is to get real, get some life experience and get an education and another job if we wanted to make more money and get more respect.. So I will address that…

If you really did read this thread, you will see that this is part of what Apple offered. Lots of opportunities for advancement, good pay and great treatment. “Our people are our most valued resource” or something like that is what I recall.

I will tell you that many people genuinely believed these promises and left perfectly good careers based on the assurances that Apple made to them. You prefer to paint us as bottom of the ladder types who took the Apple job because it was between that and truck driving school. If that’s how you honestly think, than you really aren’t listening (again…)

People actively chose to come here because they were told they were going to be part of something new, a different way of doing things, reinventing retail.. We didn’t make this stuff up in our heads… This was what we were told and what we believed in. So, by telling us to grow up, etc. etc.., you admit that all this was a lie and that people were swindled into their jobs. And then you further assert that we should have known this all along. I think the sheer amount of people who have posted on this thread demonstrate that Apple proactively, knowingly and intentionally deceived us about what the job was; but it was our fault for believing it? If that was the reality, then you also must admit it is a pretty lousy thing to take advantage of someone like that. Maybe you are exactly the people you are being painted out to be..at least it appears that way..

And the “you can just leave” argument has been addressed above. So I won’t go into discussing that.

Your efforts to justify your deception, the treatment of those whose careers you steered into the ground due to petty differences and your complete indifference to the existence of these truths (I have heard no apologies from anyone even though everyone admits this is happening) demonstrates Apple’s attitude towards their employees and quite adequately legitimizes the complaints made here.

I think it is time for some sort of labor authority to step in. Because Apple either is intentionally fostering this environment or is being criminally indifferent to it, either of which is, again, against the law.

I hope Apple is listening. Because, eventually something will happen.. And it won’t be good for them…. You can’t NDA this thing away forever. Too many people have been hurt by this…. I predict it is only the beginning of something much bigger coming…. So – to Apple – make it right while you still can…

There is no justification for breaking the law. If Apple truly broke US labor laws, then they should be (and probably will be) punished. I am not condoning unsafe work conditions or violation of state and federal laws.

I am simply asking people to take responsibility for their own lives. If you don’t like your job, change it. Get an education so you don’t have to rely on a $12 per hour crap job. Learn to be a valuable employee so you get the respect you deserve – or go somewhere that you will get that respect. And learn how the real world works so you can get over this silly attitude that the world revolves around you because your helping a customer to purchase a computer is the most unique talent in the world and you need to be highly compensated for it – unlike those losers who only have to manage a $50 M store with 100 employees.