Apple’s retail stores carry the company’s brand and culture around the world, but really, each location has its own personality based largely on the management staff. Now, staffers at the Alderwood Mall (Wash.) retail store say their complaints about “abusive” management and possible state and federal labor law violations at the store have been ignored by the company, and they are threatening to stage a walk out at 1 p.m. on October 3rd to protest. If it occurs, it would be the first such labor action by Apple store employees. According to insiders, the employees’ complaints haven’t been fully investigated by the company’s human resources department. After reaching an impasse with Sr. VP Retail Ron Johnson over the issue, a group of Specialists, Geniuses and Creatives say they will walk out to bring attention to their complaints, and that several former employees will join the protest. [IFO - The comments have been closed, but read all 144 comments that have been posted to obtain a better perspective on the retail operation.]
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You think Seattle is bad, try New Jersey. A new manager came to the area about a year ago, since then we have lost four of our managers. It’s no wonder why people are walking out next weekend. I think we all should do this.
What if at noon on Saturday we all walked out?
@ Snowman.
Imagine that, every store on the east coast stops short at noon. That would be amazing.
@ Pirate.
You think this was fearless feedback? I think not.
Snap girl.
@Joe
Current employees are told not to post on any message boards relating to Apple Computers or they will be fired. This is a selection of mostly former employees, and it’s over 55 pages in length thus far.
Choices? You want people to believe you can just transfer stores? Bullshit.
You should be fired for posting here. I hope they catch and fire you. One less bad apple at the Apple Store. Care to furnish your real name?
Come on Joe. What are you afraid of? You can always transfer stores…
@Joe
One more thing, you are in violation of your NDA. You signed it right?
HOW TO BE AN APPLE STORE MANAGER
The easiest way to become a store manager at a cutting-edge technology company such as Apple is to:
a) not know a fucking thing about anything Apple makes or has ever made
b) forgo going to college because developing your mind and educating yourself means that you’re already over-qualified and probably too resistant to the brain-washing and hollowing process
c) work for Gap or Williams & Sonoma… because we can all see how those establishments bear any relevance to the goings on at an Apple retail store.
d) It helps if while at these other retailers, you were accused of sexual discrimination/harassment or were found to be guilty of mistreating your workers or, better yet, stealing
e) If you’re an internal promotion from the ranks of the creatives, concierge, genii or specialists then you can go ahead and skip step C and A and instead what you’ll be required to possess is an alarming dissociative disorder and the ability to forget what it’s like to “give a shit”. You will actually need to rid yourself of that pesky conscience and effectively become a hollow shell of your former self. All of your friends will grow to hate you but it’s okay, You’ll get that bonus. They’ll soon forgive you for fucking with their schedules and not allowing them to take full-lunch breaks. They may even forgive you for ratting them out to the GM when y
If you can handle this list then you’re obviously well suited for the job of Apple Store Manager.
Your first DOR (Division of Responsibility: Apple’s code name for “the shit we do in the office when we’re really supposed to be managing the sales floor”) when the hiring process is completed is to get trained by someone who is older and smarter than you. His job will be to teach you all of the things you already should have known. Then what you will do is immediately put this person on your shit-list for being smarter and more capable than yourself. Watch this person like a hawk. After all, he is probably more qualified to do your job. Just look at him! He’s been working here for years and really knows his stuff and all of the other employees really respect him. Yep! He’s a threat!
Okay, your first real job is to be the “People Leader”. Even though you aren’t at all capable of comprehending what makes a “good Apple employee” you will be tasked with promptly finding more idiots like yourself because the last batch of full-time specialists got better jobs elsewhere, got married or ran off to do more fulfilling things with their lives. Sucks for you. You actually need to work! And you thought you were going to just coast for a few months. Oh well! In three months, you will rotate duties. Maybe you’ll get lucky and be the “Ops Leader”!
As the “Ops Leader” what you’ll do is micro-manage the Inventory department among other things. This a department that actually micro-manges themselves so your presence is not required but you’ll assert your authority anyhow with little to no regard for how idiotic you look. That’ll show em who’s boss, right? Maybe what you’ll do is try to “stream-line” a process that doesn’t need fixing just because you’re feeling a little left-out. Well, how could you not! I mean, look around. All of your subordinates are doing their jobs and they really don’t need you around. They can actually interpret spreadsheets and find variances and trends. It makes you feel dumb doesn’t it? Should have gone to college, huh. Oh well. It doesn’t matter. You’re off to a great start!
Pretty soon, all of the people carrying your ass will move on and leave you holding the bag. So what you’ll do is become more enraged at your lack of skill and ability and lash out at others. More than likely you’ll develop a perverse addiction or two. You can take your pick; Caffeine, cocaine, nicotine. Anything to make your job look more stressful than it really is!
Pretty soon a new crop of shittier managers will fall in behind you making you look better by default. And THAT’S the surefire way to get noticed and promoted to store manager; being the manager who looks the LEAST inept.
Welcome to Apple Retail! We enrich lives!
Joe,
Immature or not, these people have a right to be treated with respect. Your high-handed attitude proves you never should have been in Apple’s employ in the first place
Go ahead and dare to name the store you so ‘expertly’ ran and I will find you 20 people to tell you that you’re as bad as the rest of these folks’ managers were and that you’re full of shit. it won’t be hard.
You’re dumb enough to defend what you managers are all guilty of doing (even in your own posts you admit to discrimination, prejudice and apathy) so how could you possibly have been an effective store leader? You’re an idiot.
You abused and ridiculed your subordinates. You played games with people’s schedules just to ruffle their feathers and remind them that they had chosen a less than glamourous life (in retail). All of these things that people are saying are true. Yes, some of these people are late-bloomers. Some of them are burnouts but you and your lying conniving “leader-class” led them into the fire and took their dignity.
You and your pseudo-leader brethren are the reason Apple Retail is hemorrhaging talent. Go ahead, Joe. What store did you work at? Tell the world how great you were at your job. You wouldn’t dare would you? You’re the weakling here… Fist yourself, Joe, and rot in hell with the rest of your scummy manager cronies.
@how to be a manager
You nailed it with detail.
@How to be a manager! (and others using similar tactics)
Being angry is understandable but sarcasm and the like are not very productive. (I know I’m delusional if for a second I believe that a thread like this will be productive, but it’s a nice delusion, isn’t it?) I don’t think that anyone currently working at Apple – particularly the employees of the Alderwood store – would want this kind of “help” for their cause. It only encourages people to dismiss it as a bunch of shiftless angry whiny lazy employees who have no valid complaints and want something for nothing.
Even though I was once an employee who felt that inappropriate or unprofessional things occurred during my employment, I don’t hold a grudge. In all honesty, I still hold genuine fondness for everyone there, even the very manager who was responsible for these things. Our disagreements were specific to the job. I don’t work there anymore. There’s no need to be spiteful.
Even more shockingly, after reading that my experience was far from unique, I have a strange sympathy for GSMs – something isn’t right here, particularly knowing that a wonderful ASM could turn into a terrible GSM. Neither my store manager nor that store manager are bad -people-, not even remotely, and I never thought so. This seems like it must be bigger than the individual store managers, but they are the only ones that the employees interact with and therefore blame. The majority of other employees don’t deal directly with regional or national management, so how do we know what kind of experience the GSMs are having?
To those who point out how few people are speaking up in relation to how many employees there are, take note that current employees are, as pointed out above, strictly forbidden from posting to Apple-related forums whether they identify themselves as an employee or not. Employees -will- lose their job over that. I would never recommend a current employee break policy. It’s a two way street and we are all responsible for our own behavior.
It’s also been so effectively ingrained in employees to never speak publicly about Apple, many former employees are still nervous about speaking up. I have never really seen so many talking publicly, even semi-anonymously (I don’t truly think I’m anonymous here and neither should anyone else), until this thread.
Even so, complaining is easy. Solutions are hard.
I hope things work out for Alderwood, and that eventually Apple at the very least resolves the basic labor issues throughout the chain and at best returns more focus to the ideals that launched the retail stores and are taught in core training. They have a lot of very dedicated employees who are willing to work very hard to fulfill just those ideals and to continue securing brand loyalty by embodying the notion that Apple is more than a simple electronics and software company.
I understand that business concerns trump all the idealistic tenets that ARS promotes during hiring and training, and that the falsehood of this dream becoming reality is something ARS employees need to accept. Abuse, unethical or unlawful treatment isn’t.
“Do you want to spend the rest of your life selling sugared water or do you want a chance to change the world?”
How to be a Manager:
If you weren’t happy at Apple (duh)? i think you have a grand future as a satirist. What you wrote was spot on and really funny. We’re you talking about Brian Rizzi? Oh wait, there’s a thousand of him..Ha.
Let’s examine some of Joe’s theories and see how accurate they are, shall we?
Transfer – seems like a great option at first, until you realize that without a letter of recommendation from your GM, you’re not going anywhere. Mine in particular has been known to withhold that letter if he thinks letting you transfer would hurt the store’s numbers. Add to that the fact that Apple doesn’t pay you to relocate, and suddenly the plan doesn’t look so feasible after all. Plus, judging from the comments here it seems like your chances of landing in a store with a GM just as bad as the one you started with seem pretty good. So what’s the point, exactly?
Quit – certainly an option, but why exactly should a good employee be faced with this option because their manager is terrible, and the company doesn’t do anything to stop it? This is exactly the kind of thinking that makes so many Apple Store employees miserable; managers are valuable, everyone else is expendable, and if you don’t like it there’s another warm body around the corner waiting to don that lanyard and “enrich lives.” Not such different thinking, eh?
Hold out until the manager transfers or quits – it goes without saying that this one is an even more gregarious example of manager-centric thinking, but let’s leave that alone for a sec. What if your GM doesn’t want to transfer or leave? Think about it, they get paid pretty well and usually have a staff of competent employees who are capable of running the store without them. Sure some of them are career minded, but I’d be willing to wager that a lot of them are planning on staying put for a good long while. So again, what’s a good employee who’s being made miserable by the GM supposed to do?
I can’t stress enough that this is the kind of thinking that’s truly hurting Apple Retail. The employees on the ground are working their asses off every day to meet the company’s goals and they deserve to be compensated with respect and fair treatment. Joe – it might be hard for you to see that given the position you’re in, but if you and the rest of Apple’s upper management don’t wake up to this concept soon, it won’t be long until Apple Retail becomes nothing more than a Best Buy with better interior design.
As I said before, what a bunch of whiners. Pay at the Apple Store is considerably higher than other comparable retail jobs – and in fact higher than a number of skilled manufacturing jobs in some parts of the country.
Apparently, what we’re seeing is a bunch of juveniles who never had to deal with the real world and now have to face the fact that Mommy and Daddy aren’t going to supply all their needs and the world isn’t going to bow down to their every whim.
Grow up.
It’s not about the pay, Joe, though for the record it’s pretty abysmal for the level of knowledge and customer service skills an Apple Store employee is required to have.
I doubt very much that any of us are inexperienced in dealing with the real world. In fact, if you read carefully you’ll see that a lot of the posters are older, and have had a number of careers including military service. Nobody expects the world to bend to their whim, but what we do expect is respect. We expect local and national labor laws to be followed to the letter. We’re the grunts on the floor making sure your numbers look good so you get that fat bonus check at the end of each quarter. We do all the hard work for you. The least you can do is be grateful.
@Joe “Anonymous”
Come on Joe, what store do you work at? What’s your name? You have nothing to fear from Apple, right?
Pay at the Apple Store is not considerably higher, you’re a liar, and for the millions some employees sell for Apple, their pittance of a wage is nonsense, as the managers make a great deal off of the sweat and labor of us “whiners”.
If in the “real world” you mean, abusive, self-centered, empty-headed, narcissistic jerks for a management team, then maybe a class action law suit will bring the Real World to your doorstep.
I’m in. They can have my testimony, and I’ll pull in everyone I used to work with as well as security tapes for various incidents dating back to 2005.
You like Apples Joe?
How about them Apples.
“Come on Joe, what store do you work at? What’s your name? You have nothing to fear from Apple, right?
Pay at the Apple Store is not considerably higher, you’re a liar, and for the millions some employees sell for Apple, their pittance of a wage is nonsense, as the managers make a great deal off of the sweat and labor of us “whiners”.”
My name is irrelevant as I don’t work at Apple. I did, however, work in retail while I was in college. At the time, it was obvious that working in retail is a lousy way to make a living. The difference is that I had the drive to get an education and get into a position where I will never have to work in retail again. For those of you whining about retail, do something about it. Get an education and a better job.
“managers make a lot of money off the sweat and labor….”. Thanks for proving that you don’t know how the world works. Sorry, but management makes more than entry level in virtually every industry in the world. And management rarely doesn’t ‘sweat’ the way you claim to be doing. That doesn’t mean management doesn’t work. I’ve had jobs where I put in 80 hours per week for years on end. You’re deluding yourself if you don’t think management (in general) works hard.
As for the pay, I love the way you throw around the term ‘liar’. Proof beyond any doubt that you’re not interested in rational discussion, rather you feel that calling people names is supposed to prove your point. The facts are simple. Several people here quoted the starting salary for Apple Store employees (see above). Those figures are more than my company pays for skilled machine operators who are producing life saving products. These machinist work (HARD) over heavy machinery in a hot in summer, cold in winter shop that makes your air conditioned Apple Store look like heaven. And when they mess up, lives could be lost. When you mess up, someone loses a Mobile Me sale. I’m sick of hearing about your terrible pressure and stress.
Get a life.
@Joe
You never worked at Apple? That explains everything. You don’t know anything.
“You never worked at Apple? That explains everything. You don’t know anything.”
Yep. Your inability to engage in any rational discussion is noted.
Fact: I worked in retail for years.
Fact: I advanced to a management role in retail.
Fact: I have run several manufacturing companies with as many as 70 employees.
Fact: I am well versed in management principles as well as management expectations.
Fact: My companies all performed at levels several times the industry average.
Fact: My employees respect me and greatly like working for me – as verified by anonymous, independent third party surveys.
Fact: You call me a liar based on nothing other than your personal belief that anyone who disagrees with your narrow view of the world must be lying – even though I know what my employees earn and you obviously don’t.
Fact: You have no experience other than working as a low paid retail clerk for an Apple store because you’re clearly incapable of any more. Your major work experience involves whining about how terrible it is that you only make $10-12 per hour for working in a climate controlled, mall environment.
You really need some exposure to the real world before telling me that I don’t know anything.
Joe,
You still wouldn’t get hired at Apple. I’ve seen quite a few resumes rejected, and they stand out above your “experience”. As a matter of fact, I would view your “experience” as a detriment.
As for my experience. It’s none of your business, except to say it’s deeper than yours.
“You still wouldn’t get hired at Apple”
Did you read anything I wrote? Of course I wouldn’t get hired at the Apple Store. That’s the entire point. I went out and made something of myself so I wouldn’t have to work in crappy retail jobs. I have no desire to work at the Apple Store (or any other retail establishment).
I love the “I have tons of experience and know everything about everything and anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot, but I won’t tell you anything to prove that any of my claims are true” argument. True second-rater nonsense.
Joe,
I’m a consultant now, and as for my Apple experience, it’s nobody’s business on this thread, and I would reveal my anonymity by expanding beyond that. I do ok. :)
This just goes to show, you don’t have a clue. Everyone whom has worked for Apple will concur with what I have stated.
Now, what the hell are you doing in this thread? You don’t have anything of value to add.
Joe,
FACT: I worked retail for years too.
FACT: I advanced to higher levels in the company. Again, none of your business.
FACT: I come from a varied background and now have my own consulting business, which does pretty well.
FACT: My companies had employees ranging from none of your business.
“Retail Clerk”?
If you only knew all the roles I played at the Apple store, the best you could hope for would be a Concierge position. There is no such thing as a clerk at Apple. Here are the job categories for your edification.
- Concierge
- Creative
- Lead Creative
- Specialist Full and Part-Time
- Key-holder which is now Lead Specialist
- Genius
- Lead Genius
- Business Consultant
- Assistant Manager
- Senior Manager
- Store Manager
- General Manager
- District Manager
- Regional Director
I don’t see “clerk” in there anywhere, do you? Check out their job site sometime. It’s public knowledge.
FACT: I started at Apple when their Management team was great, and I endured hardships with the rest of my team as they moved towards the Best Buy philosophy.
FACT: I know more about management, retail, methods of management and the tools they use to “assess” themselves and others than most managers delivering them.
FACT: You’re assumptions about me are as sophomoric as what you accuse me of.
FACT: You are a poser, and I could easily school you on the retail floor, in inventory control systems, management theory, leadership, grow-your-own < you have no idea what that is, metrics, motivation, crisis intervention, point of sale systems, security analysis, customer service, training, operations, merchandising, surveys, shrink control, salesmanship, and a plethora of other topics.
What the hell are you doing in this discussion if you have never worked at Apple and have no experience with the problems faced by current and recently former employees?
Just because you worked at "Target or the Gap, or gasp, Best Buy or Circuit City" where management style is knowing how to fuck over people who report to you as well as the customer, doesn't make you an expert worthy of addressing the problems here, or anywhere.
FACT: I'm currently a management consultant commanding much more than I made at Apple to show others how to do the job right, and get exponential results from current employees using processes other than Six Sigma, and how you don't have to worry about SOX compliance if you have trained your people right, so they are freed up to actually treat the customer the way they should be. With respect, ethically, and by following your corporate mantra. See Guy Kawasaki for more information on that.
It used to be "Surprise and Delight", then it was "Enriching Lives", as formerly mentioned in this thread, and now it's something altogether different. Some voodoo bullshit based on falsified data called, again, none of your business.
What ever happened to.
Do the right thing.
How is that for having a rational discussion?
Please don’t feed the trolls.
Any update on the “walk out”? Did it take place or not?
FTA: October 3rd
Ex-appler,
Angry much? You rant and rave like such a lunatic that you must have really fucked up at your own store.
Discrimination, prejudice and apathy? Really – you can assume all that from my 2-paragraph post? You must truly be a genius. Abuse and ridicule? Wow – you’ve been damaged by someone, and it sounds like you need a really good therapist – so much anger. Hemorrhaging talent? You sure have a flair for exaggeration as well.
You had better think about cleaning up your own act and losing the anger before you go looking for another job. You’re on the verge of being out of control. And you’re an asshole.
Joe
How to be an apple store manager:
Wow. Way to go! There’s a picture of you next to the word “prejudiced” in the dictionary. You attempt to extend your personal experience to 250+ stores and all managers who work for Apple, and you sound completely incredible (as in not-credible) in doing so.
YOU try being responsible for any of those areas of responsibility in a multi-million dollar store. Your descriptions of what those managers do sound like the rantings of a 12 year-old who’s pissed off at his parents, which only cements my opinion of the babies who post here. You haven’t the slightest idea of the responsibilities involved in running an Apple Store. My store did nearly $40M/year. Somehow you think that a manager shouldn’t be directly involved in the inventory processes involved in running such a massive business in a relatively small retail store? Your definition of ‘streamlined’ and mine most certainly would not jibe.
Even if, somehow, every one of your managers actually id act the way you describe, it’s quite a stretch for you to extend that to the entire operation across 250+ stores.
You’re just another immature fool who thinks he knows everything. That’s clear from your descriptions of your own managers, and you’re angry that you were never put in those positions so that you could show THEM how to do it. Good luck in the future – you’re gonna need it.
Joe
BTW – “Joe anonymous” and I are two different people.
“BTW – “Joe anonymous” and I are two different people.”
I will confirm that.
As for the whiners, I’d be curious about what they think is ‘fair’.
I’d wager something like $25 per hour to start, guaranteed 10% annual raises, no pressure to sell anything, no expectations that they add enough value to cover their salary, no demands that they do anything unpleasant, breaks whenever they want, no fixed work hours (too restraining), no manager telling them what to do, and even if there were a manager, they should make half of what the stock clerks make since the manager isn’t adding any value.
At least that’s the way it looks from all the whining here.
Just thought I’d better reaffirm what I said earlier (because all the juvenile whiners will ignore it unless it’s repeated several times).
There is no justification for breaking the law. If Apple truly broke US labor laws, then they should be (and probably will be) punished. I am not condoning unsafe work conditions or violation of state and federal laws.
I am simply asking people to take responsibility for their own lives. If you don’t like your job, change it. Get an education so you don’t have to rely on a $12 per hour crap job. Learn to be a valuable employee so you get the respect you deserve – or go somewhere that you will get that respect. And learn how the real world works so you can get over this silly attitude that the world revolves around you because your helping a customer to purchase a computer is the most unique talent in the world and you need to be highly compensated for it – unlike those losers who only have to manage a $50 M store with 100 employees.
Ok everyone. Let’s just step back and take a breath.
The personal attacks must stop. It dilutes the importance of this thread.
Those attacking the store Managers and Apple please refrain from personal attacks, calling someone a jerk, etc.. It proves nothing other than that you have run out of constructive arguments and at that point should probably leave the thread because you have lost your ability to argue on the points. I’m on your side guys. But getting personal accomplishes nothing and only plays into what the store management and Apple want us to do, discredit ourselves. Strangely enough, this is exactly what they did in the stores, rile you up and get you angry so you do or say something stupid which gives them the reason they need to discredit and shitcan you. Does the tactic sound familiar? You guys are falling for it.
So before you walk into it again, take a breath and realize that we are still right. Because no matter what a manager argues here, none of them seem to be able to properly argue or explain why they continue to engage in illegal and abusive activity.
For the Managers who are posting here, if the only arguments you can come up with are to respond with insults as well, then you are proving yourselves to be the people we have described you to be….
I’m trying to be fair reading this thread because, yes, I have never been in a manager position in the stores. So I/we don’t know what kind of pressure you are under or your point of view. So why don’t you try to explain it to us and help us understand instead of responding with childish insults. Here’s your opportunity to get the respect that you feel you’re not getting here. Make an argument and let’s see what happens..
Now with my comments so far:
I have not heard one argument that makes the illegal treatment of the employees make sense, other than that these are tried and true techniques that have proven to make a retail chain profitable. But aren’t there legal ways to do it? Is this what you want to be your personal legacy at Apple. “Well, I broke every law in the labor 101 manual and became the most despised individual among those I worked with. But at least I made a lot of money…” Criminal and tyrant..Is that what you wanted to be? I hope it’s worth it. I mean that sincerely. Because when the money is gone, that’s all you will have left behind..
So , let’s put one thing out there to begin with. Apple is breaking numerous labor laws all over the country with their treatment of employees, which, by the way, may also include managers.. The fact that no manager here has even tried to deny it tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong…
In addition, the bad managers know how they are treating their employees. So again, what justifies it? Is there no more positive way to get what you need from your employees without engaging in these tactics? Are you so under pressure to deliver that you have adopted an “at any cost” attitude of the ends justifying the means?
I honestly don’t know the answer to these questions, which is why I am asking because I never truly understood why my managers did the things they did. Not everyone that got canned was a bad employee. But I know that A LOT of people who had their career at Apple cut short were model employees and did a great job.
I have since moved on and currently run my own company and have my own employees. We can’t afford to pay our people a lot. But I can tell you, now that I am a boss, that positively motivating and genuinely inspiring your employees can make up for a lot of other shortcomings, such as low pay and long hours instead of using fear, lies and intimidation. I know it’s harder than doing it other way. But doing the right thing usually is..
What I do hear from the defenders of management in this thread is to get real, get some life experience and get an education and another job if we wanted to make more money and get more respect.. So I will address that…
If you really did read this thread, you will see that this is part of what Apple offered. Lots of opportunities for advancement, good pay and great treatment. “Our people are our most valued resource” or something like that is what I recall.
I will tell you that many people genuinely believed these promises and left perfectly good careers based on the assurances that Apple made to them. You prefer to paint us as bottom of the ladder types who took the Apple job because it was between that and truck driving school. If that’s how you honestly think, than you really aren’t listening (again…)
People actively chose to come here because they were told they were going to be part of something new, a different way of doing things, reinventing retail.. We didn’t make this stuff up in our heads… This was what we were told and what we believed in. So, by telling us to grow up, etc. etc.., you admit that all this was a lie and that people were swindled into their jobs. And then you further assert that we should have known this all along. I think the sheer amount of people who have posted on this thread demonstrate that Apple proactively, knowingly and intentionally deceived us about what the job was; but it was our fault for believing it? If that was the reality, then you also must admit it is a pretty lousy thing to take advantage of someone like that. Maybe you are exactly the people you are being painted out to be..at least it appears that way..
And the “you can just leave” argument has been addressed above. So I won’t go into discussing that.
Your efforts to justify your deception, the treatment of those whose careers you steered into the ground due to petty differences and your complete indifference to the existence of these truths (I have heard no apologies from anyone even though everyone admits this is happening) demonstrates Apple’s attitude towards their employees and quite adequately legitimizes the complaints made here.
I think it is time for some sort of labor authority to step in. Because Apple either is intentionally fostering this environment or is being criminally indifferent to it, either of which is, again, against the law.
I hope Apple is listening. Because, eventually something will happen.. And it won’t be good for them…. You can’t NDA this thing away forever. Too many people have been hurt by this…. I predict it is only the beginning of something much bigger coming…. So – to Apple – make it right while you still can…
Point on! I was with Apple for five years and constantly was offered the carrot of the promotion. Even when I jumped through all the hoops and kiss the butts the answer was, you should have done this or completed that.
In the beginning Apple retail was different. A person could go from retail to HQ. Several from the King of Prussia was successful. Things changed the day Apple started lowering there standards for hiring store mangers. Before the change Apple would promote from with in the store or at least starting training an assistant manager. Sadly Apple plays the same game with it’s assistant managers.
The bottomline is that Apple retail is now nothing but retail. Most of the Koolaid drinkers have moved on. We have taken our talents and passions for Apple back into the real world.
Well said, ex-McG, especially the point about people leaving perfectly good careers to work at Apple on the promise that there was more in their future than selling, only to find out later that promotions were few and far between and that they had a better chance of winning the lottery than landing a job at Corporate.
Back to the point of why the problem is so systemic…my theory on why this is a systemic problem is that GMs are motivated by two things: their desire to please by hitting the company’s aggressive metric goals, and money. Both are fairly simple motivations to understand; if they’re successful at meeting those goals they stand a better chance of getting promoted, if they don’t there’s probably a lot of explaining to do. Likewise, they have a financial stake in the store’s performance by way of their bonus structure.
Most managers probably start out with good intentions, but succumb to the pressure at some point and resort to at-any-cost tactics to get what the results Apple is looking for. If you look at the metric requirements Apple sets for the stores (50% One-to-One, 25% Mobile Me, etc), and the bare bones staffing most busy stores have, and it’s easy to see the pressure building up quick.
So maybe the problem isn’t strictly with the GM’s, but with Apple Retail as a whole. As I understand it, the original aim of the stores was to promote the brand and give customers the best shopping experience in the computer industry. Somewhere along the way it seems like Ron Johnson and company lost sight of that goal. Now Apple Retail is all about profit per square foot, selling attachments that a lot of customers don’t need or want because they’re profitable. In short, money became the goal rather than a byproduct of good service. And with that, Apple Retail became no more different than any other big box chain.
Why are people assuming that the employees are uneducated plebs that have never worked anywhere else before?
My store was full of professionals who were chosen for their expertise in a subject relevant to the product. Many had degrees and previous careers. Photographers, authors, musicians. And these were the specialists. Even the part-timers. Most of the part-time employees who weren’t already professionals were in university.
The assistant managers had often already managed their own store in the past.
The Geniuses that were hired at the time were all technical professionals with educations and strong careers outside of retail.
Almost universally, everyone was very bright, very motivated and very much already members of the “real world” by the time they joined Apple, which is why they were selected.
Does/did Apple even ever hire anyone without previous (“real world”) experience?
Also, hardly anyone is really complaining about pay. These are just convenient strawman arguments. Go ahead, set them up and knock then down, but it doesn’t change the original issues and arguments which you seem to ignore.
ex-MG:
“I honestly don’t know the answer to these questions, which is why I am asking because I never truly understood why my managers did the things they did. Not everyone that got canned was a bad employee. But I know that A LOT of people who had their career at Apple cut short were model employees and did a great job.”
Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what happens behind closed doors. You’d be amazed at how many people we fired for various reasons. Mostly it was policy violations like attendance. Next was known theft.
You also need to remember that many states are “at will” states, which means your employer needs NO reason to terminate your employment. Typically, Apple will follow their P&P to the letter to help ensure they don’t get sued for firing you, at will or not.
“So , let’s put one thing out there to begin with. Apple is breaking numerous labor laws all over the country with their treatment of employees, which, by the way, may also include managers.. The fact that no manager here has even tried to deny it tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong…”
And what have you done about that? Did you contact HR? Did you speak to your managers? If you didn’t, that’s on you, and no one else. If you feared reprisal, again that’s on YOU. It’s your responsibility to be sure you’re treated right. If you’re too scared to do so, then you need to grow up.
Joe,
You have no business commenting in this thread, and your reply to Ex-MG is out of line. A former manager absolutely knows what goes on behind closed doors. And, if he or she disagrees with the rest on decisions, they are placed in that special place called the dead end. It’s either unanimous, or not, and believe me when I say, the store manager doesn’t accept anything less than unanimous.
“we fired”
You said you didn’t work for Apple, so either own up to it, or stop talking like you did.
“Policy violations, and attendance”
Now you sound like one of the bad Apples. I’ve seen people railroaded out of their job from being 2 minutes late. They document the slightest indiscretion in time, or policy, and police you, especially if you aren’t the top performer on the floor. It’s easier than coaching, and motivating the right way. I’ve also seen some horrible hires let go by this device, which should never be abused… rather, it was a poor hiring decision which should have been avoided.
“Known theft”
That’s not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is senseless bullying and inappropriate behaviors which are against labor laws. Try to keep up with the discussion.
“And what have you done about that?”
BIg words from someone who’s never worked at Apple.
Move on Troll.
“You have no business commenting in this thread”
I see. So this thread is exclusively for people who agree with you?
That’s BS – and is one further sign that you lack the maturity to discuss this.
I’m getting tired of hearing about all the labor law violations, as well. Why is it that no one can be specific? Why has no one filed a complaint? Filing a complaint for labor law violations is simple – and doesn’t cost a penny. It can be done anonymously, too. Why haven’t any been filed?
There are many thousands of Apple Store employees. The fact that a few want to whine about working conditions is hardly news. As soon as there’s some evidence that there’s a REAL problem rather than some whining, feel free to present it.
Joe,
Foisting the blame back on those who were victimized is shallow and manipulative. You sound like a remorseless rapist when you talk like that.
Furthermore, I wish you’d be more accepting of the fact that a lot of these people fearing reprisal felt justified in keeping silent. No one should have to choose between getting paid and retaining their dignity.
And this brand of “fuck you. you knew what this was” attitude is EXACTLY why this thread is here to begin with. You’re not convincing anyone, Joe. Calling us babies doesn’t change a thing. All it does is prove what everyone’s already been saying.
how to be a manager is correct. He’s astoundingly astute with his satire. Maybe a little glib but he’s correct, none the less.
You sound exactly like the prototypical Apple manager and that’s no compliment.
So the bottom line is that Apple is guilty until proven innocent, right?
Where’s the evidence? What we have is a handful of people whining anonymously on a forum – but who don’t have the gumption to even post an anonymous complaint with the government. No evidence, no facts, just “big, bad old Apple manager treated me badly”.
And when anyone asks for facts, they get accused of acting like a rapist or they’re told they have no business posting.
Again, there is no doubt that there some bad managers at Apple just like any major retailer. But there’s not one shred of evidence that Apple is as bad as the rest – and certainly none that they’re worse.
Amazing.
Once again, Joe provides us the proof he has no idea what he’s talking about. This thread is not about you. What I want to know is, why you are defending Apple? You don’t have any information to go on, because you never worked there in any respect.
What people have stated in this thread are first hand experiences, which I can easily testify to. I’m all for investigation to reveal what has transpired, and I have first had accounts of abuses.
What have you got?
Nothing. Typical troll. Grow up kid.
former employee:
You may be confusing me with Joe Anonymous. I never said I didn’t work for Apple. I was a manager for nearly 5 years.
I don’t really care what you say you’ve seen. No one gets fired for being 2 minutes late. Say what you want, but unless you provide the paperwork that shows that, it’s all conjecture and hearsay. The people I fired for attendance issues were all chronic, just as it should be if you’re going down that road. Warning after warning – some people simply cannot get to work, or school, or anywhere on time. And that’s too bad for them. It’s too bad they were never called out on it at school, and if they were, it’s too bad that their parents called the school to bail them out by lying for them. That doesn’t work when you have a job.
I was telling ex-MG that HE doesn’t know what goes on behind closed doors, because he wasn’t a manager. I was. Is it YOU who needs to keep up? Or simply read more carefully? People who get fired rarely admit it when it’s their fault and tell all kinds of stories to make themselves feel better.
sumguy:
Blaming the victim? Geez, and I though I was a bleeding heart liberal. I simply advised that people need to stand up for themselves. If they don’t have the cajones to do so and stay in bad situations, they deserve what they get.
All I’ve heard here is conjecture. Let’s hear some real stories and see if they make any sense, or if it’s just a bunch of whiners. Leave out the names, but give specifics – real specifics. Dates, times, what was said, what the context was, etc. I defy anyone to do so here.
“Once again, Joe provides us the proof he has no idea what he’s talking about. This thread is not about you. What I want to know is, why you are defending Apple? You don’t have any information to go on, because you never worked there in any respect.
What people have stated in this thread are first hand experiences, which I can easily testify to. I’m all for investigation to reveal what has transpired, and I have first had accounts of abuses.
What have you got?
Nothing. Typical troll. Grow up kid.”
I’m not defending anyone. Rather, I’m attacking a bunch of juvenile whiners who think just because their experience working for Apple was terrible that Apple must be a terrible company and they must mistreat everyone. I’m also attacking this “me, me, me” mentality that someone owes you a job or a pleasant life.
Yes, there are a few people who stated first hand experiences — or claim to. But there’s absolutely no documentation, nor are there any facts other than “my boss is a big old meanie and I don’t like him”. If Apple were so frequently violating Federal law, why aren’t there any formal complaints? You know, the kind that actually gets investigated beyond listening to anonymous whiners. And why would these people continue to work for Apple if Apple is so evil? Clearly because they don’t have any marketable skills that would allow them to work elsewhere.
Nor has there been anything suggesting that the ‘problem’ is widespread. There are hundreds of Apple stores with hundreds of managers. No doubt there will be a few bad apples – no one has contested that. But why does Apple get tarred with this brush on the basis of a couple of bad managers.
When you have FACTS that can be substantiated, feel free to present them.
This has gotten really vitriolic and unproductive.
I am tempted to reply to some of the blanket personal attacks against former employees or the whole “if you didn’t stop it, you deserved it” thing, because the baiting is so well-done, but it’s still just baiting. It’s not worth it.
However:
This thread is -not- an appropriate place to reveal specific dates, times, details. Those of us posting have left Apple, and most have put it all in our past. We made our choices, we are gone. Whether we reported things to HR, corporate or the government is irrelevant; we have no current claims. This is the past.
The -only reason- that anyone has shared their stories is to help define what the Alderwood store -might- be referring to as “abuse.” Someone asked, several people answered. It’s almost unheard of for ex-employees to really share this stuff; the fear of reprisal is still there, though it’s hard to imagine what Apple would do about it. I’m not sure if they can sue or not. Maybe. Who knows. Apple doesn’t seem afraid of suing over chatter on fan sites.
At the least, some of us still have fondness or respect for our co workers and management in spite of it all. Reference: The past. Some of us may have gotten over it, but it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and that we are required to either be silent about it or overly specific/activist about it. I’m not interested in bringing every detail to light or attempting to obtain some kind of retribution, and I am even less interested in opening myself up to more trouble from something long done.
That’s a battle for current employees to fight on their own, in the proper venues. If an entire store is actually so unhappy they’re planning a walk-out, then I can only surmise it’s more than just a few whiners. A few whiners with invalid complaints rarely have the influence to do this. That is, if it is true. There has been no confirmation. Anybody involved would be wise to hold their tongue and not post their information here. Anyone not involved has already moved on.
This is turning into a ridiculous childish argument with lots of finger pointing and accusations. If you don’t believe what has been posted, you have made that clear. We understand you do not believe. We comprehend your attacks. Thank you for your input. To the rest of us, there’s no reason for anyone to continue attempting to defend yourselves or answer to anonymous demands for details that may be much more trouble than they’re worth to provide. You will not change their minds – they are already ignoring whatever they don’t want to hear.
Likewise, for clarity, none of appear to be demanding Apple answer to -us- for anything. Realistically, we can’t ask for it even if we wanted to and Apple has no responsibility or reason to act in our favor.
I think all any of us ever wanted to do was to show our support for current employees who may be doing exactly what we did not have the courage or energy to do. I still support Apple and the retail stores and have high hopes for their continued success; I want this success to apply to the employees as well.
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