Store Discord May Result in Employee Walk-Out

Great to see. As a former employee (3 years ago) at one of these retail stores I know from experience how terrible the managers are. With the exception of a one they where all former Gap managers. Very little technical background. Most of them didn’t know the first thing about using an Apple. Most of mine didn’t even own an Apple product with the exception of an iPod/iPhone. Apple puts a lot of pressure on them and most of them cannot handle it. While normal people would leave most of them have no choice due to the fact they will be retail for life. Apple will probably fire these people and just replace them like any employee who acts out. One thing these people need to remember is Apple treats everybody as if they are replaceable. The whole bullshit about each employee being individual and bringing something different to the team doesn’t mean very much. Apple’s mentality is very much “It’s your privilege to be working here”. (It goes for any job) but at Apple especially. The geniuses will move on to work at a university tech department or another big business where their salaries will double from the meagerly $16-19 an hour they make now.

Management makes all the difference. I had a wonderful experience at Apple and had a great management team to work with at my store. However I heard horror stories from other nearby stores. Things have changed a lot though from the early days of Apple Retail when managers knew nothing about Macs. Most managers I have met have been using Macs for a while.

It is true what Miguel says though about replacing the workers at that store. They should probably replace everyone who walks out as well as the managers and start with a clean slate. I’ve heard that for every opening they get 10-20 resumes. Especially in this economy it won’t be hard to find replacements.

The article doesn’t talk about how the managers are “abusive”. Do they threaten employees, or do they not let them have every Friday night off? More info is needed.

As a current employee for nearly two years, I can see how this could happen and wouldn’t be surprised if more stores did the same. First off, the pay is horrible. Most employees are part-time and in order to be considered full-time (which is considered a promotion) you have to be great at not only selling Apple products but also selling “solutions”. Services such as MobileMe, Applecare, One to One and Procare which on average are an extra $129 each. Second, there is no sort of commission for doing so whatsoever. Then if you are not doing well on those you get picked on by management and reminded that in order to be consider for “full-time” you must get your percentages of “solutions” up.

I will not even go into the break/lunch situations.

As another (former) Apple retail employee, let me explain something fairly key about all of this:
Apple works their collective asses off to make sure we, as retail employees, know that they are different. They spend millions of dollars on internal company propaganda to tell the normal retail employee that they care, we have recourse, we’re cared for, we’re a true team, and we are a privileged group of elite. So, when things go truly rotten, there’s an entire history of “being fair, honest, upright, and kind” that gets used as an excuse for “why things have to be a bit tougher right now.”
At my old store, when things really got bad (no hours for part-timers unless a full-timer called in sick, performance reviews and raises that never happened despite being scheduled, folks trained for and promised promotion positions replaced by unskilled and unexperienced outsiders, non-standard and over-enforced dress code, lunch/break structures that aren’t labour department compliant, etc.), there was no one to go to about it. The assistant store managers were divided over the issues, but those opposed felt powerless, the store manager set the policies (although -very- different from those of any other store in the chain), and the regional guy, who we were supposed to be able to go to, backed the store manager’s policies and not the employees. This despite, as stated, many of the store manager’s policies were not Apple corporate policies.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I would work for Apple again in a heartbeat, but never, ever for that store or it’s managers, ever again. As for this walk-out in Washington? If my co-workers and I hadn’t felt so bullied, so scared, so constantly made to feel guilty by our managers, we might have walked out ourselves. However, we were too scared, and too run down… too emotionally drained to make anything happen.
Hooray for this news, I hope only that this brings a closer examination by Apple corporate of the trends, conditions and policies within all of the retail stores. Problem is, it’s just as easy for Apple to get pissy about all of this and use the NDA as a reason to let go of anyone who talks specifics.

Peace, kids.

@James Bogard

Something is in “full gear” but it isn’t your brain.

@Drew: “they denied me an interview at a new store”
—
I too didn’t pass an interview at the King of Prussia store a few years ago despite being ACTC and having 15 years of Apple experience. I suspect both you and I were actually overqualified. In my case, I was between corporate jobs and they (probably rightly) thought I’d demand too high a wage. In retrospect, they also thought I’d not put up with being treated like a piece of dirt. It all worked out–I’m back in corporate America making about double what the Apple Store would have paid and I’m also dealing with a much higher technical level than teaching customers what a “network” is. If Apple ever chooses to actually support Enterprise, and I need a job, then maybe I’ll re-apply with them. In your case, it sounds like you’d do a lot better joining ACN and going into business for yourself. Get to know your local Apple Stores’ managers and get referrals from them when they have customers with complex needs.

Having formerly worked at an Apple Store, I can tell you there’s probably been more than a few labor disputes. A lot of them you never hear about because people just don’t want the hassle of attention, they just want the problem solved. However, in my opinion HR/Ron Johnson and his staff has been good to handle them. In one case, the district manager went down to a store to meet with disgruntled employees to smooth things over shortly after the complaint was raised.

So it’s interesting to see these employees so disgruntled over something that they’ve threatened to walk out and called attention to it.

Apple Retail can be a great experience if your store management rocks, but I’ve heard a lot of stories where your employee experience can be marked by the store management despite Apple effort to create a tight-nit group of employees.

I’m not surprised that former employees would seek to help out. The culture of an apple store can be such that employees have a bond between each other and help each other out. You build a lot of long term relationships with people there. It’s nice to see that this is still going on.

@Larry F

Official Apple Policy for employees is to confirm only what Apple has said in a press release, anything else is speculation and rumor. You won’t get an answer about this from any employees because dont know more than what’s on this site, only the bigwigs (Jobs, Schiller, Ron Johnson) at Apple know the deal and gl getting in touch with them ;-)

Even if they knew they wouldn’t just randomly tell anyone, they’d get in trouble :)

About the only thing I can say is that labor conditions in the Apple Stores are not legal, the job is very high stress, unnecessarily so… the folks aren’t paid right and I wish them the best.

Glad I’m not in it anymore and you know, I haven’t been back to a single store since.

The original manager at the St Johns Town Center (Jacksonville) was a real bitch to anyone smarter than she was – which was pretty much anyone. She used tactics like illegally deleting overtime and other worked hours from timesheets, habitually cutting employees’ break or lunch time short for very low priority tasks – sometimes in mid-meal, ignoring physical conditions that prevented heavy lifting or standing for extended periods of time. When none of those tactics would get rid of the person she hated, she’d just fire them without cause. Complaints to HR went no where. They were usually routed back to the manager for HER to handle. HR never investigated anything.
I support my brethren in Washington! Stand up for your rights!

I used to work at that very store. Was part of the staff that opened it. Although most of the management is gone at this point through turnover. Their pressure from corporate was very much felt on the floor. The theft policies and supposed responsibilities are moronic. Corporate forces metrics that are unobtainable and mangers feel the need to “discuss” these issues with the sales staff. Who are usually kids. Basically it is staffed with fan boys/ girls who are starting to come to terms with hating their beloved company. You can feel it in the air. It’s depressing.
I was promised training, movement up the chain etc. All fell through by hiring new people and keeping me where I was. (Sales)
In the end I was fired. Good thing to as I own my own business now, only need to work 20-30 Hrs a week when I feel like it and make 40-80 an hour administering Macintoshes in the enterprise at an assortment of the largest game, web, development companies in the Puget Sound. I deal directly with Apple corporate only.
I stand by them but unfortunately the differences between the company who makes cool technology and the one you buy that tech in are depressingly at odds. Part of the employee frustration must stem from this important difference. Compounded by all the retail douche bag’s they employ in management. Corporate forces metrics that are unobtainable and mangers feel the need to “discuss” these issues with the sales staff. Who are usually kids. They will replace the employees in a heartbeat. But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen. Kudos for being “Real” in a time when people just lay dead most of the time. (Some of the above comments are to that effect) Media may be the only way for to force Apple to shift their policies. That and everyone has to stop buying their shit. That will not happen though.

I feel it’s the managers that are the majority of the problems with the store. But it is also…crappy pay, long hours at different times of the day so you can’t have a life outside work. Mandatory store meetings on SUNDAY night. If you complain about anything, they mark you and begin marking you down for anything that will allow them to can you. Oh and how about working part timers for 39 hours a week so they don’t have to pay benefits. I love Apple and have been a tech for 15+ years, and after 4 years at a store I gave it all up.

@exlmg – Yes it was VERY stressful. All the employees at my store became very heavy drinkers, myself included. Many of us developed alcoholism from trying to deal with the stress, again, myself included. I never used to drink before I worked there, and now I have to work at not drinking.

Between the unreasonable expectations of management, and the bad attitudes of many of the customers (I’m sorry, but people can be really nasty jerks to store employees for no good reason), that job is way too stressful.

After five years working there I was happy to leave. Don’t get me wrong, my coworkers were great, and I made some good friends from the store, but it is an unreasonably stressful job! No job should drive a person to drink.

@David McElroy:

Workers also have the right to organize and may be successful at improving their situation if the grievances are substantial enough and if they are united. Otherwise, retail is a bitch – Apple knows they have a deep well of fanboys/girls as potential employees so they don’t need to pay well and can have sub-standard labor-management quality and get away with it. Welcome to capitalism in the USA, which is rocked by numbers to the detriment of workers and, ultimately, customers. You can bet if the staff are underpaid, the managers are also and are under extreme pressure to make outrageous sales targets – it’s a standard practice in all selling organizations, but unfortunately means that the company isn’t being smart. High turnover of employees ultimately degrades customer experience and negatively impacts sales – as long as there is any competition. The retail stores are only one section of Apple’s revenues, however, so if they are poorly or inconsistently managed, Apple may not suffer or even notice. All of that said, even though I don’t ever buy MS products, I’m glad to see they will at least _try_ to give Apple a run for its money by opening up their own stores, and therefore injecting competition both in sales and in employee retention.
But, lastly, I must say that my own (customer) experience with Apple retail stores is that they are second to none. If the employees aren’t happy they certainly aren’t letting that affect their interaction with customers – unlike just about any other store I can think of. I always walk out of Apple stores saying to myself, if every company ran their retail outlets like that, the consumer’s world would be a much happier place.

[...] So Microsoft is apparently poaching Apple store managers. Maybe Apple should just give them the ones that run this store. [...]

I worked in the second store to open in that state. (You’ll often recognize former Apple employees by how vague they are about Apple and their personally identifying information – even years after they are no longer employed.)

It was by far the most stressful job I have ever held and took a serious toll on my mental and physical well-being. I believe that the stress level is likely very similar for every store, but each store has their very own culture set entirely by the store manager. Our store manager was a passive-aggressive, bi-polar nightmare who was terrifying under stress – which was nearly all the time. Each day we wondered whether she was going to blow up at us over some insignificant mistake, or be cheerful and friendly. She literally yelled at some employees, and was regularly completely unprofessional. There were enough complaints about the hostile atmosphere she set that at one point corporate HR came to speak to each of us individually. However, nothing was done.

Apple has a personnel-handling policy that they call “fearless feedback” wherein each employee, including management, must assume that the person to whom they are speaking had positive intent when they performed whatever action it was that was seen as objectionable. Management in particular was supposed to at all times believe that employees mean to perform well and do good things and that they came from a place of good intentions, and handle it that way.

As an example, should an employee be slow on the sales floor and cause delays for customers, the manager should go about addressing it like such: “Employee, I see that you are focusing on each customer in such a way that they feel they have your full attention and that’s wonderful – all our customers deserve to feel this way and I understand that you’re doing a great job providing this level of service. My concern is that we have a higher volume of customers than we have salespeople right now, and though I love the attention you’re providing each customer, many aren’t getting your attention at all because of the singular focus. What I propose is that you practice setting expectations for your customer – give them your solid attention for a few minutes and then explain that there are others you also need to see, but you will be back to check on them. Then focus on another and come back to the first. Should you find that the volume is overwhelming you, call for the floor manager to assist instead of allowing some customers to leave without getting service.”

It’s long winded, but the policy required that management attempt to find the positive intent in everything and approach each employee as if they knew they were the good guys and on the same team. That kind of feedback above is helpful and informative and by policy what should be happening. Management and full time staff were at one point (hopefully still) required to get hours of training in this.

In reality, what happened is that a manager would say, “We need to have a fearless feedback moment,” and then ream the employee for being slow, saying things like (and these are tame examples; real quotes would compromise the generic nature of this missive) “this is unacceptable, this is bad for the store,” and even include threats like losing full time status. Management has made clear on multiple occasions that it doesn’t matter how many good things you do – a single mistake will wipe out your good service record. Mistakes were not acceptable, ever. You could not make a mistake. Zero tolerance for mistakes. Zero.

Fearless feedback was never, ever fearless. No one ever followed this policy correctly in our store. I always feared being spoken to by management. Employees left the store manager’s office in tears on many occasions. Knowing that the manager wanted to talk to me would cause my stomach to turn. It was rarely good. It usually involved long-winded, caustic rants that employees almost universally referred to as “reaming” or “ripping a new one” – never just a reasonable talk. Rarely a professional one. It even came down to personal attacks, accusations of lying or intentional misbehavior.

This may sound like no big deal – In fact, I am no stranger to bad bosses. But constantly walking on eggshells around the manager on top of working in an environment where mistakes were not tolerated and customers felt entitled to abuse the employees… especially because Apple is more of a cult than a company and their customers are like religious zealots or feel that because of Apple’s “downtrodden” past they were doing the company a favor by buying their merchandise. This massive sense of entitlement gave customers some in of license to demand unreasonable things, and store management would always grant it (in spite of whatever corporate policy to which employees were required to adhere), making employees attempting to follow policy “the bad guys.” I had worked retail before, and had spent an entire career in customer-facing positions, but I had never encountered this level of entitlement or abuse by customers.

So, that combination of customer abuse and management abuse alone made the stress almost unbearable. Employees often banded together for comfort and as another commenter noted, turned to heavy drinking. Cliche, but true!

This does not even touch the labor practices such as scheduling. Since it is shift work and encompasses the hours of 7am-11pm and sometimes more in some stores, and because it is retail, of course the hours are going to be miserable. But management regularly refused to follow policy – scheduling too many days on in a row, scheduling a swing shift followed by an early morning shift, not providing the weekly schedule until the day before the week began, changing the weekly schedule in the middle of the week without informing affected employees and then penalizing them for coming in at the “wrong” time – we were told it was our responsibility to check the schedule every single day before we went off shift. Unfortunately, that did not allow any of us to schedule such things as doctor’s appointments and did not allow for the possibility that the schedule changed between the time that we left the store and were next scheduled for a shift.

Time off requests were regularly denied for no given reason, sometimes simply because they were not submitted the ‘required’ amount of time in advance – it didn’t matter that management wasn’t actually scheduling that far in advance, it was just to deny time off on principle. That’s not a speculated reason, that was stated.

Schedules were unnecessarily erratic – sometimes just for the purpose of reminding employees that they could not become comfortable in any particular schedule. As above, not speculation, but stated reasoning.

Overtime was not allowed, but we were required to give a certain level of service. The only solution was to work off the clock – which was also not allowed, of course. It was literally impossible to perform correctly in this case. If we worked overtime we would be unprofessionally reprimanded. If we worked the required hours and did as much as physically possible within that time, but the workload was more than we could complete and certain tasks were not completed, we were unprofessionally reprimanded – see above. This was probably the worst of the three options because it involved a customer being unhappy in addition to management, and management made sure shit rolled downhill and took out the customer’s frustration on the employee. If we worked off the clock, we were unprofessionally reprimanded. Often what we would do is simply “forget” to clock in or out in order to fudge our numbers in a subtle enough manner that we worked off the clock without being caught. The consequences for not being perfect were unreasonable.

There were many, many other issues – some as simple as Apple refusing to provide any kind of basic physical accommodations to employees – the slate floors had no anti-fatigue mats behind the registers or Genius Bar, the registers and GB computers were painful ergonomic nightmares, water was not allowed anywhere on the floor but employees were not allowed to leave the floor (Geniuses in particular were expected to remain at the Bar at all times, but Genii would regularly break this “policy” to get parts for on-the-spot replacements – that’s done away with now by the addition of “runners” for these items). Lunch breaks were hilariously never provided on time, but this was always considered the employee’s “fault” and they were reprimanded for this. 15-minute breaks were not scheduled and rarely allowed.

Just the tip of the massive, massive iceberg. Many more examples could be provided but would be too specific and personally identifiable.

And why did employees not leave or ask for change? We all tried desperately to drink the Kool-Aid, we didn’t have time to look for other jobs (how can you schedule a job interview when you never know your days off and are required to give almost a month’s notice for time-off requests?) and we were physically and mentally exhausted. It was more trouble than it was worth to try to bring about change – the regional management would become literally angry if employees tried to bring up any issues about their store management. She wanted nothing to do with it and always backed the store management and punted the issue back to them to handle, stating that she was too busy for this kind of ‘petty’ stuff. HR was unimpressed generally and even our so-called “HR audit” produced no change.

I loved the job and I loved my co workers, but ultimately the unnecessary stress management put on us was what drove me to leave. Had there been a more professional and understanding manager who I felt was “on my side” and supportive, I would have stayed much longer in spite of the high stress levels of the job itself and the nonexistent promotion prospects. It was a dead end job, but I still enjoyed it. Sadly, to this day simply -visiting- the store makes my stomach tighten in remembered fear. No one should ever be so negatively affected by a job that years after quitting, the literal -fear- of walking into the store remains.

The best part? I heard Alderwood was so much worse that years ago, all the employees signed a letter of no-confidence in their store management and sent it up the chain to corporate. I did not know it could possibly get worse than my store, but it is a sure sign of an undeniably horrible environment when every employee is willing to join together to do something. Usually you have hold outs who don’t want to rock the boat. If it’s bad enough that -everyone- gets on board, it’s very, very bad. Even in my old store, as bad as it was, no one was willing to push for that kind of action. So this must be horrendous.

As someone else noted, the manager now managing that store used to be an assistant manager in our old store and she was a delight to work with. Unfortunately, being a delightful assistant manager does not a delightful ‘full’ store manager make. It makes me sad to hear about this, but I am proud of these employees for banding together to make a strong statement. This is what unions are about, and I regularly wished I had a union to protect my rights.

Go Alderwood!

notice it’s the managers causing the problems;it’s always the managers who screw things up at ANY company.this will never stop,people are people and retail has always been this way.

As an ex apple employee who had the dept of labor side with me on two issues that apple HR ignored, I definitely side with the employees. I have seen so many state and federal violations that it isn’t even funny. Yes this is a time where unemployment is high but to uphold one’s dignity one must stand up for what it believes is right despite these times of uncertainty. I have known that all the way up the chain they ignore complaints and not allowing breaks, safe working conditions, sexual harassment, violating equal opportunity and refusing to address these issues if they are complaining about any of these things that happened at my store and I know many nearby stores than more power to them.

In reply to Pirate:

Here’s how it started, and how it got to where it is.

Apple Retail opened in 2001. They hired good people, even recruited from within corporate for the first two stores. The people they hired as Genii had years of technical experience with Macs. They paid amazing salaries too, for 2001, 65K+ a year especially around 9/11 was friggen awesome!

The idea was to make the store, especially the Genius bar, like the Ritz -Carlton hotels. Well when you’re paying someone with a lot of experience, a good salary, you get a good employee. Guess what? When you pay someone with not a lot of experience, a good salary, you get a great employee! Because America is a capitalist society!!

Apple understood this then, and thats why there was a bonus structure. Not commission, but a bonus.

Speaking of Bonus, ARS GM’s are awarded a bonus of between 125-133% of their yearly salary. And that’s why they act as task masters most of the time. They are driven by their own greed, to hell with the morale of the store!

As ARS bloomed, they filled in the gaps, with gapples. Did you watch Jurassic Park? Do you remember what happened when geneticists filled in the Dino-DNA gaps with amphibian DNA? Hell ensued for John Hammond, spared no expense!

I digress, back to the issue at hand. Somewhere along the line, Apple realized, hey we can’t pay these high salaries to everyone as we open new stores. After all it’s retail, so they went down to paying retail, or slightly higher pay rates. Thinking different are we?

Here’s the issue, someone with experience, who can make 50K+ a year elsewhere, is not going to work at Apple for 30K in retail. If you’re a Genius you’re lucky to break 35K a year! So they were forced to hire the less than elite crowd for retail.

Oh and if you’re a part timer, then you live with mommy and daddy, unless you have another job full or part time. Or you’re homeless, picky choosey?

On the other hand, Management is paid pretty decent at Apple, and I believe they do have a bonus structure intact. Therefore they run the staff into the ground and all these Apple fans, are now disgruntled.

So sir or Ma’am. Your experience of Apple retail was different than the regular folks was. And regarding your comment about the 20 somethings with the I don’t want to work attitude? Well if Apple would pony up the dough to hire the elite again, gee you wouldn’t have that problem!!

Microsoft is going to try and hit Apple hard. They are recruiting current and former disgruntled Apple employees, actively. The rumored Guru salary is 85K a year (best part is, no repairs!)

So for 50-55K more per year for Gurus, versus Genii. I have one thing to say….

Hungry fella? There ya go!

name_withheld – you clearly don’t understand the fearless feedback concept, and maybe your managers didn’t either.

FF is a mechanism for peer to peer interactions, not manager-employee interactions. Sure, you want to assume positive intent at all times, but as the boss, if you need to deliver a whooping, you deliver it. It should be on the positive end when possible, but Apple or not, it’s a business and work needs to be done.

BTW – These comments have nothing to do with the Alderwood situation, just with your silly post.

[...] might not be the best move on Microsoft’s part however. ifoAppleStore is reporting that employees at the Apple Store in the Alderwood mall in Lynnwood, WA, intend to walk out in [...]

@Joe, Re: “FF is a mechanism for peer to peer interactions, not manager-employee interactions. Sure, you want to assume positive intent at all times, but as the boss, if you need to deliver a whooping, you deliver it. It should be on the positive end when possible, but Apple or not, it’s a business and work needs to be done.”

It was a mechanism for all interactions; manager-employee, peer to peer and even employee to customer. It applied in all situations. Managers are not there to deliver a “whooping” to their employees when there is a problem. They are there to identify and solve issues in a professional manner that creates a positive environment where employees are motivated to do their best work. Otherwise, they are reducing morale and productivity and ultimately costing -their- bosses money.

I can think of no situation in which “deliver[ing] a whooping” is remotely professional or effective behavior in dealing with reports.

[...] might not be the best move on Microsoft’s part however. ifoAppleStore is reporting that employees at the Apple Store in the Alderwood mall in Lynnwood, WA, intend to walk out in [...]

@name_withheld… There isn’t anything to say because what you said is true. It was certainly the case on all sides of the pond. The fatigue matting issue was a huge one for me and a bunch of others stuck on “Bar Duty”. I can’t go into more specifics, but nothing was really done for a long time about it and required plenty of treatment afterwards and because they boned the paperwork L&I wouldn’t cover treatment leaving me with a huge bill because of it.

It will be 3 years this month since I’ve been gone and I really feel for whom I still regard as brothers stuck in the trenches. My quality of life has gone up so much since leaving. And honestly I was an adult when I left and stayed my two week notice. I’d say it was a mistake because mgmt treated me as if I was betraying them for those two weeks, but I was able to say goodbye to all my regular customers, and they were the ones who made the job worth it in the end.

Good luck to all! (and look for ex-mg stuff on FB.)

name@withheld is 100% on the money.

I was a former genius myself at one of the flagship stores in CA. Everything that
name@withheld said is unbiased and true.

Without repeating the above, I will add my personal experiences in hope that Apple Corporate might look at this and truly see something is wrong here. Many people’s lives and careers have been hurt very badly due to Apple’s irresponsible placement of the wrong people in positions of power. In addition, shame on the managers who held so many futures of their employees in their hands only to irreparably damage them due to their incompetence, irresponsibility, immaturity and complete indifference to any sense of duty and dedication to those whom they lead… The Apple Store Manager has become the textbook example for the rule that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

During my time with the ARS I worked under 4 separate managers, all of whom manifested
the same approach to the job. So it wasn’t just an individual’s personal style. There was definitely a prevailing corporate mentality and approach to the job.

While on the job I personally witnessed managers doing the following:

1- openly berating employees, not only in public areas but intentionally in front of other employees to provide the full effect of a public humiliation.

2- Managers frankly and openly telling employees who are expressing concerns that they are easily replaceable should they even think about leaving. While maybe true, is this considered good leadership?

3- Ambushing employees by calling them into the manager’s office for a “quick chat” only to spring a formal reprimand, complete with all the forms already filled out for the employee to either sign or contest the issue with HR.(which we all have seen how effective that is)

4- Managers intentionally blackening an employees’ record when the employee exits the company if the manager feels the employee might take their reason for leaving to corporate, if it can even get past the HR black hole (see point below.) The preemptive blackening of the record basically castrates the employees’ attempt to bring any future grievance or reason for leaving to HR once they have removed themselves from the abusive environment. In one case in particular, I personally witnessed an employee being framed for theft because the manager, as retaliation for the employee’s departure, wanted to prevent them from ever returning to Apple in any capacity.

5- Managers using the store’s connections and resources in an inappropriate manner in order to gain personal favors from influential people in the music and entertainment community. In many cases, managers would give customers free repairs or services, bump them to the front of the repair queue or even replace machines under “customer service” in order to gain personal favors such as tickets to concerts and movie premiers and even possible agent representation for their spouses or significant others.

6- Managers routinely betraying the confidence of their subordinates by communicating concerns or conversations that the employee was assured would not be repeated, only for the employee to find out later that the exact conversation had been formally documented in their file in order to be used against them should management find a use for it later, if it is needed…

7- Managers intentionally blurring the line between friendship and the employee/boss relationship so as to benefit the manager 100% of the time….. The approach was basically that as long as the employee did not displease the manager, they were friends. But the moment something happened, or the manager became unhappy with the employee’s actions (either on or off the job), the friendship suddenly disappeared and the employee was harshly managed or singled out as a troublemaker from that point moving forward and eventually managed out of the job.. Managers routinely did this with the employees as they moved through the ranks and became at first enamored and then weary of them…. It was unprofessional and abusive, much like sexual harassment. It was basically a “be my friend or you won’t do well here, proposition,” which inevitably always ended badly.. While I understand there can be 2 sides here. Look at the power balance in this situation and who really has the control.

8- Managers becoming close with the HR representative for the store in order to gain an advantage at heading off any possible HR grievances that any employee might lodge. Frequently one would find that the GM and HR rep for a store were very close and of like minded purpose. This basically rendered the HR channel for grievance resolution useless, as the HR person would often pocket the grievance or go through the motions of investigation, but change nothing.

There is much more to tell. But I feel this covers the main things I witnessed while I worked at Apple.

I will also say that I still know many who work for the company and have not had these experiences. And I of course know that not all GSMs are like this. But a good many are and as we can see here, Apple needs to do a better job of providing an oversight system to deal with so many unfit employees.

I for one truly believe that if all the employees in the store are in agreement then something is definitely wrong. While there may be two sides to the story, the GSM is the captain of the ship. And the first rule of leadership is that everything is your fault. If the crew wants to walk out. Then the GSM and Apple Corporate should ask the question as to why this has happened and their role in bringing it to fruition, if it does in fact happen… All of us here either have or still do work for Apple and understand the gravity of this decision.. We all know it is not something that they have considered lightly (especially in this economy.)

At minimum, the employees’ commitment to making things better should be recognized, honored and praised by Apple if it truly values the special and unique qualities of each of it’s people, as it claims that it does. Let’s hope they value their employees now more than they have demonstrated in the past, as this situation will surely put that to the test.

Here’s to hoping for a brighter future.

Ex-McG

After reading about how many ARS employees experienced difficulty specifically with their GSMs, you start to wonder what kind of pressure they were under from their management that resulted in pitting them against their employees like this.

hr places the store managers
hr knows everything that happens at the stores
after all apple is to blame but this is should not suprise anyone
this is capitalism: fuck the other and save yourself
so quit the apple store and get out of america
and if you stay fight for the coming insurrection

name_withheld, what you heard about the letter at Alderwood is completely true! It was written up by a group of employees from grand opening crew (which I was a part of).

The best part about it was that we didn’t send it up to corporate. We knew that the regional retail representative was coming to our store to check up on things and speak to our manager. We handed the sealed letter to her as she was leaving the store in plain sight of our manager.

As per usual, nothing ever came of it. This was back when the we worked under the original store manager of Alderwood. From what I’ve heard, the new store manager (your previous ASM) had some sort of conflict with the original manager and it ultimately resolved itself with the original manager resigning and the ASM becoming the new manager. From there, all the existing ASMs and keyholders were either “forced” to resign or transferred.I still keep in touch with a lot of employees at R100 some say that the new manager is worse than the original manager. There are other employees who transferred over with her that are super loyal though.

I support Alderwood in their attempts to be heard, but I fear that Apple will do nothing. What they will most likely do is take employees from nearby Apple Stores and task them with covering the walk out’s jobs.

I helped open the Apple Fifth Avenue flagship store in New York City and worked there for nine months. I remember opening day being one of the most fun, awesome experiences of my life. After that, it was one of the most horrible I have ever endured. While I had a few really cool managers and supervisors, they tended to be the exception, not the rule. Also, most of them no longer work for Apple. The pay was horrible. I started at 12$ an hour and eventually was up to 14.50$. That’s not enough in NYC. They would always stagger your schedule for no good reason. You might work until 11pm one night and have to be back in 8am the next night. As someone stated, you are judged on how much applecare, .mac (now mobileme), and other attachments you can sell. You really can’t sell these attachments to the international customers, who made up at least 35% of our customers. Yet, I had a manager basically tell me that I should lie to get them to buy it. When I called him on it, he got really angry at me, and he was like, no, “we believe they need the complete solution and you need to find a way to make it work.” My mom got very sick and had to be rushed in for emergency surgery to save her life, and they gave me crap about wanting to take a day off on a weekend to be with her. They eventually relented (and my mom ended up okay), but a friend of mine had a similar situation in which her grandmother was dying and they wouldn’t give her the time off because it was the holiday season and a vacation black out. Promotions were not based on actually skill and were given to people for arbitrary reasons such as how much ass you could kiss. People were fired for no good reason, or at least the same reason other people should have been fired, but weren’t. I was up for a promotion to trainer and was told by the manager that I wasn’t qualified. What was messed up was that they already had me filling in for the job because I was more qualified to teach certain applications than the people they had. I also had been a teacher and was conducted staff training seminars. I quit shortly thereafter and went back to grad school realizing that there was no way I was going to be able to move up in the system. Another example of how horribly the sales staff was treated, the apple chain used to pay quarterly bonuses for exceptional sales staff. If you hit $500K, you got $500, if you hit $1m you got $1000, and if you got $2m, you got $2000. Only two people ever hit $2M and they were both in the Soho store at the time. Not many people ever hit $500K. Yet, the first full quarter, after shattering sales records (fall ‘06), 32 of us got to at least $500K, and at least ten hit $1m. We received our bonuses and the very next day, Apple announced that they were getting rid of bonuses for sales staff. Unfortunately, they kept the bonus structure for management, so predictably, sales stuff turnover skyrocketed as the incompetent managers began to micromanage everyone even harder. The sad part, is that store received over 4000 applications for the 250 new store opening jobs. They got the chance to cherry pick from a pool over way overqualified staff. I’ve gone up there since, and virtually no one still works there that I knew. Furthermore, right before I left, the shrink (employee theft) problem had gotten so out of control, they were going crazy trying to figure it out. I never stole and always did my job, but a lot of the time, I felt it was the management’s fault for the way they treated us. One of my friend’s there was also a glass installer. He told HR, that he could not work at the store prior to a certain time because he had a full time union job. They would schedule him anyway. When he didn’t show up, they fired him. The messed up part is that he told HR and they said they would handle it. They handled it by sitting by doing nothing while the managers ignored him and then fired him. Also, just as a point of comparison, on 5th ave, the average sales person made $12 an hour. The GM was paid $190K per year. He didn’t do anything. He was such a greedy opportunist that he owned the vending machines in the break room. I still use Apple products because they are significantly better than the competition and I need the reliability. If that weren’t the case, or if a second alternative came around, I would never buy an apple product again.

“Complaints to HR went no where. They were usually routed back to the manager for HER to handle. HR never investigated anything.”

Sounds like my old store.

Hostile managers- Their tone and attitude any time you try to have feed back. They were all very threatening of your job and always make the issue about you instead of the feedback youre giving them. They frequently yell at specialist in front of others. Very unprofessional.

Retaliation- New rules or policies whenever they feel threatened by specialist. Unspoken rule of points for leaving early. Managers complaining to me how everyone is so bitchy and negative and states that this is not a “democracy” and they will get rid of the “negative people”

Breaks scheduling and lunches-
They bother people at break, for example like they interrupted an employee while she was on break. She finally said “please do not bother me when im on break” and they threatened to write her up or take her break outside of work because they will ask anyways. My favorite was how they all complained how none of the managers get 15s or lunches so why should you? They would tell us to suck it up for the needs of the business. If you complain its a battle. No 10 hour breaks between shifts. Needless to say whenever their is a huge visual night or a late night, they do schedule sometimes the closers to open up the very next day, including managers. .Managers and specialist are not getting lunch breaks and working through and leaving early. Erratic scheduling with poor coverage or none to give breaks or lunches or even help customers. NO ONE IS MANAGING.

Attendance-Randomly enforced. Mid shift people are overlooked while openers or closers are watched closer. Also anyone on their “negatvie ” list is monitored closer. New rules about leaving early and getting points. Supposedly Millenia got this approved by HR. Weve asked repeatedly and receive no response or conflicting answers if this is true. Some people are called if late some are not . One Genius was almost written up for this as he wasnt called and was going to get a no call no show for being late.
Now they are attempting to assess points for lunch latenesses, but when asked if managers go with certain employees is it ok if they are late and is it like the 6 minutes grace period?? No answer about the 6 minutes grace period. They just ignored it like they usually do

Development- No mentoring. No positive reinforcement. ALways putting you down. Retail U is spoon fed for results for Regional Manager not for actual knowledge. Threaten if you dont go to special training , it tells us you dont care and well…..
Mentors have not gone through proper training or retail u themselves. Some know less than specialist.

No manager support on the floor- When providing feed back to this , we are told we are bitching or complaining all the time. They are not managing the store,employees, or for LP. They are too busy worrying and completing their own tasks and no one is managing the store. i asked for 30 mins for a manager and not one of them came out from the office. if you knock on the door they get you an attitude or groans. Always looking for managers in the back or walkie talkie to get them. we wait for them to check us out for leaving to go home or breaks and once i got yelled at in front of a customer by a manager who said he was too busy, when looking for someone else i almost immediately saw him checking out an employee, i was trying to help apple and my store by getting a schedule change, instead i decided to utlitize my sick time bc im tired of basically getting treated like a piece of crap

Systematic removing or not promoting from our store- They will claim those here arent “developed” However, the managers themselves are not equipped to motivate or develop our team. They failed to do so and are now punishing all viewed as negative and replacing with favorites from other stores.One recently came back from a cruise with a manager from Millenia and is now lead creative. The other was Genius then personal shopper, let their certification expire but is now lead genius. Lead specialist was going to be filled, but we are now told we dont have head count. However , the Regional Manager told one person going for it,head count doesnt matter.

They also tried to write up one genius who had attendance issues but it was reversed. One was fired for something, but it was because they spoke their mind. He was forced to finish the case in GCRM by a manager and insists he never worked on the repair. 3 Genii have left for AC jobs as they voiced concerns within and to HR and received no response. Personal shopper left to AC after being with retail for 6 years. He was attempted to get written up for personal shopping results and it was removed as he wasn’t the lead.

HR knew all of this and MORE!!! Especially how unenthical the General Manager (at that time) relationships was with some of the coworkers. Turns out that the managers who made the “worst” decisions and hiring and promoting are now leaving to work for our competitor MICROSOFT. And to top it all off the GM actually MSGed one of the girls that spoke to HR and made a threat.

I eventually left after working there for 2 years….Apple has become just like EVERY other retail store. I lost trust in HR and my management team. I’d rather work for Walmart than ever work for Apple again.

GOOOD RIDDANCE!!!!

Actually… let me list what they’re supposed to do and what they actually do.

Red Zone manager – manage the sales floor.
Reality? Make sure Lead Specialists and Concierge are managing the sales floor. Skive. Tell people off for not doing their (your) job.

Family Room Manager – manage the family room.
Reality? Make sure Lead Genius & Lead Creative are managing the family room. Don’t do anything, at all. Make snap decisions to tear people a new one for no reason without actually having any idea about what’s gone on because you were in the office watching Hulu.

Operations Manager – I have no idea what these people do, because Apple Stores don’t order their own stock and ICS handle everything that could be described as ‘operations’.

People Manager – Look after staff.
Reality? Tell people to handle their own problems, citing ‘Fearless Feedback’. Handle the problems of the store favourites who suck up to management, go on holiday with management, go out drinking with management etc. If any genuine problem arises, Phone HR, tell them the staff member in question has committed gross misconduct. Make up a reason later.

Store Manager – Manage the store.
Reality? Make sure all the other managers have enough naive people convinced they’re ‘going places’ to do their jobs for them. Convince these people they’re ‘going places’. Tell people what they want to hear, then go to the office to do the complete opposite.

Area Manager – I have no idea. Ours managed three stores and was at each store once a week for around half a day, 75% of which he spent on his phone to who knows who.
Reality? Be the last stop for any big issues, during which time you ask the Store Manager what he thinks, which is what the People Manager thinks, and repeat it verbatim for the third time without actually considering anything at all. When necessary, tell HR what to say, which is what you said, which is what the store manager said, which is what the people manager said. Which was usually ridiculous.

GYO Manager – trainee manager.
Reality? Do a little of what the managers are supposed to do. Which is very little in the first place. Do it very badly, because you’re not an experienced manager.

The store I worked at has/had several managers which did NOT fit this list. They were fantastic, but mostly no help because everything good and decent they did was caught by someone else and promptly undone. They all last about six months before moving on because they get so frustrated at how upside down and back to front everything is at Apple.

@ Ex-Creative

I can’t help but think we worked in the same store.

This was the letter given to the regional manager of alderwood mall years ago.

March 1, 2006

To whom it may concern:

As you know, Apple has implemented a line of open communication called “Fearless Feedback”. The following is the definition as stated in Apple’s Policy and Procedures:

“The phrase “fearless feedback” means that we use interpersonal communication skills to talk with each other about how to improve the store and our contributions to store success. We do this without fear of repercussion or conflict.
Fearless feedback flows in every direction—to wherever it can produce better results for our customers, our stores, and our teams. It helps define the spirit and culture of our stores.
The fact is that we need every single employee committed to making us successful. We need everybody’s best ideas, willing contributions, and continuous improvement. For those things to happen, we believe we need to be as kind and courteous to each other as we are to our customers.”

The employees of Apple Retail store R100 are no longer attempting to practice fearless feedback. We find it not only ineffective, but also discouraged by our Store Manager Carrie Lopez. All interactions with her have become disheartening and are negatively impacting the performances of our employees. She leads not by example or encouragement, but with fear and intimidation, holding our jobs over our heads as a means of control. It has created a passionless environment where we are no longer a team or a family but individuals struggling to keep ourselves out of harm’s way. Failing to do so results in the inability to support oneself, by means of dramatically shortened hours, or termination.

The first and most important step of fearless feedback is to assume positive intent. We have attempted to understand why she is neglecting or perhaps misunderstanding Policy and Procedure, in this respect, but at this point it has grown intolerable. She uses the term “Fearless Feedback” as a guise for an intimidating conversation where she more often that not, reminds the employees of her ability to terminate at will and that any further comments or issues on the employee’s part would force her to believe that they are not a team player.

We all love Apple. We loved the glamour and excitement and the passion that comes with it. We miss the sense of community and family that it gave us. We have lost loyalty within our store. We were the Apple zealots and it is damaging our commitment and faith in the company. There is no encouragement or positive reinforcement for our accomplishments. Our turnover rate has grown out of control. There is no opportunity for advancement and she uses this inability as a means of control.

In an attempt to reach out, with high hopes for change and knowing that a one-on-one conversation will result negatively, we planned to speak to her as a group at our last store meeting. It is our understanding that this information became apparent to her and we believe it is the cause of her absence at our quarterly meeting, when her leadership was most necessary. Her absence was the final act that lead to our extreme discouragement and the loss of a team mentality.

Solely our Assistant Store Managers Sam Morgan and Henry House maintain the little faith and passion that we share. They are in the same position as the rest of the team and are doing what they can to keep morale high beneath her radar. They are the inspiration behind the whole team. Were it not for them, the majority of the staff would not only have left Apple, but would have lost their commitment and excitement for it as well.

We are submitting this letter with hopes that it will allow for intervention from others in order to help make our store team-oriented, as it should have been since its opening last November. This is not a criticism against Carrie Lopez as a person, but as a Store Manager. We are asking for change.

Sincerely,

The former and current Apple employees of store R100

[...] guess there is some rumbling in the warm and fuzzy world of Apple fanpersondom. That is hard to say. Anyway, this story recounts some problems brewing in an Apple store. [...]

To ‘Pirate’-

I agree with a lot of what you are saying-
But clearly you have never spent a month at the Genius Bar.

Also, you are missing the point entirely-
We do not want to leave Apple. We love(d) Apple. We want Apple to treat us better so we can continue to love Apple.

For the most part, management and the rest of the store for that matter have no idea what the Genii in some stores (specifically new and understaffed ones) have to go through. It’s unnecessarily stressful and the monetary compensation has nothing to do with it.

As for moving on- as I’m sure you know, most Genii do. It’s the position with the lowest retention rate in all of Apple Retail I’d imagine.

I’d like to see this not get the attention of the entire Seattle ARS management and upper management. I’m sure their next interview for a higher position will certainly include the small blemish of having an entire team walk out on them…

GOOD JOB GUYS- now if only more of us could follow in your footsteps we might make some progress…

My husband used to work as a genius at an Apple Store. He worked with a lot of great people, but no good managers! A few managers were maybe a little less difficult than others, but compared to the place he’s been working the last few years, the managers at Apple were a waste of time and had no consideration for the employees.
As someone who has never been an employee for Apple, but is married to a former employee, I HATED the years he worked at Apple. The job was cruel, he was under so much stress that our marriage seriously suffered, and had he not got out of there when he did, I’m not sure we’d still be together now. There was never any time at all for him to spend with our child, or time as a family, period.
The pay was very little for the amount of work he did, and I saw first hand how horribly some customers treated him a few times that I happened to be visiting him. It is despicable that a human being should have to put up with the vanity of some of these customers, and quite often down right stupid ones.
The working conditions were impossible as well. Between the extremely bright white lights, the really hard floors, the ergonomically horrible counters that look so zen-like, there were back problems, migraines, leg problems, neck problems, wrist problems, and foot problems. We spent thousands on medical bills between things like physical therapy, chiropractors, doctors, and pain killers. And when Apple looked into the various poorly designed work spaces, the problems were basically ignored.
Go Alderwood, and I really hope you guys don’t get fired for walking off the job!

I’m a former Mac Genius- emphasis on former. I loved the idea of working for Apple, but the store manager we had was, frankly, an incompetent, bipolar harridan. She knew NOTHING about Apple products when she took the job, she clashed with the knowledgeable people in the store constantly, and she was far too focused on a high school cliquish mentality. I suspect if the store was run like a normal business instead of a madhouse, I would still be there.

I didn’t find the pay terrible although it was at the bottom of what we should have been paid for our skills. The working conditions though- schedules all over the place, there were weeks when I worked five different shifts. Crazy workloads including double and triple-booking the Genius Bar. Managers who didn’t have a clue about how a repair business should be run. Any complaints were answered with “That’s how retail works, get used to it.”

And I’m not some kid- I was in my 40’s, a military veteran who has worked in FAR more technically challenging jobs, and an experienced Mac support tech.

I’m sad that I wasn’t able to keep working at Apple as I loved my co-workers and the job itself. This story doesn’t surprise me though, I think it was inevitable that things would go south sooner or later.

Out of curiosity, I reviewed some of the saved personal emails and what little documentation I kept of my communications with HR on my personal computer. It’s a small fraction of actual documentation as most communication was via official Apple email which of course stayed with Apple when I left.

To be frank, I am shocked. It is actually much worse than I remembered. Over the years, I have romanticized my employment and glossed over much of the bad; I have put on rose-colored glasses when remembering my time with Apple Retail.

The simple fact that a great deal of communications were done with personal email addresses at home while off the clock at home says enough.

I cannot repeat any of my saved notes, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was wildly inappropriate at best and unlawful at worst.

When I looked over these reminders of my time with Apple, I asked myself, “Why did you stay? Why did you not leave sooner?” The truth of the matter is -I loved my job-. I loved the work I did for Apple. I loved the work I did for Apple’s customers. I loved my co workers. I wanted desperately to make it work. I was incredibly loyal and driven. I gave my all to the job because I believed that the customers deserved it and my co workers deserved it. I was good at my job. I made customers incredibly happy. I did outstanding work.

Apple lost me because after I spent every drop of energy I had on giving rock-star service to even the angriest and most ungrateful of customers, turning unhappy people into happy people, absorbing all the negative energy upset, angry, frustrated people gave and turning it into positive, calming, soothing energy and making these previously disgruntled users into loyal customers… I stepped into the back of house and was met with hostility from my own management that was supposed to be on my side and support me. There was literally no escape from the pressure cooker.

People can claim “wah wah wah it’s retail” all they like, but Apple Retail wasn’t my first retail experience; it wasn’t even my first electronics retail experience. However, Apple Retail was the -worst- retail experience (at least in my other retail jobs I got my legally mandated 15 minute breaks, did not have to beg for them and was never hassled for attempting to take them), and I wasn’t even in the actual -retail- part of ARS business.

And yet, I was fiercely loyal to Apple, to the customers and to my co workers regardless for far, far longer than anybody ever should have been. I wanted it to work. I wish it could have worked.

I think the only reason I have spent so much time commenting here is because part of me hopes that somehow, against all odds, the employees of Alderwood can get the solution they’re looking for, and make it work they way they want and deserve.

Not only do those employees deserve fair, legal, ethical and respectful treatment, but Apple deserves to have devoted, hard working and loyal employees who are willing to go this far to fight for their rights in an effort to continue to work for Apple and provide good service. Maybe all those employees -could- leave – in fact, I happen to know that in the first few years at that store, most everyone did. It was that bad. That this particular batch of employees is so committed to trying to make this work even if it means they have to do something drastic is outstanding. I desperately hope it works out.

And considering of all the stories that are coming to light, I hope perhaps there may be consideration of what might be systemically wrong here that could cause a once delightful ASM to turn into an intolerable GSM.

Hmmm, me thinks the internal push that drove Apple retail to produce an incredible $2,743.33 of sales per sq.foot has been great for the short-term numbers but will be very costly in the long run.

The really good genii, creatives and specialists were drawn to Apple retail and the mediocre pay, because original management understood that giving customers respect, knowledge and great tools to work with was good business in the long term. Employees could go home at night knowing they had actually enriched the lives of their customers.

The short-term thinkers that have crept into the stores over the last two years are more interested teaching their staff to close the deal and push attach rates. It’s bad business in the long term, but it’s made numbers go up in a down economy which, I understand is damn tempting.

The downside is that the good employees are leaving as über detractors and all too often customers are leaving the store feeling more sales-pitched than enriched.

Customers don’t drive long distances and pay the higher prices on accessories at the Apple store because they are stupid. They do it because of the the employees are bright, motivated and willing to share their knowledge in a respectful manner.

Ron, if you read this, understand there is still time to pull your hand out of the customer’s pocket and apologize for letting greed get the better of you. Heck, let’s even kick off an apologyfest by letting customers sign up for that One to One gig again without having to buy a new computer.

I know it’s expensive to staff all those creative positions and actually leave them in the family room to teach, but come on, you know creatives are better givers than takers and that whole giving end of the Apple equation has been getting short shrift in Apple retail lately.

Thank you for all of your comments.

Can we shift the discussion to how Apple can improve the situation.

Obviously they need to promote from within. That is the only way they can make sure that managers have sold or repaired Apple computers. It would also guarantee someone in management has been there and done that. And anyone in any supervisory position must sign a form showing that they know the law.

In any industry where you deal with the public, the biggest complaints are at the point of contact. In the health industry, nurses get the complaints. Why, they are just following the doctors, or administrators instructions.

As stated before, everything could be purchased on line, usually for less. The public contact points need to be happy with their work or at least satisfied. If Apple wants to continue to make coverts to the Mac, they have to keep the experience as good as possible. Look at what happened to Circuit City when they fired their experienced sales people.

And in general. Why does corporate America think that managers are valuable, but everyone else is dispensable.

This is an astounding thread. I’ve never seen so many current and former ARS folks speaking in one place about their experiences. Apple ingrained fear of big brother in all of us while we worked there, NDA’s haunting us to the grave.

Please post links to others like this, if any exist.

It’s absolutely incredible that so many of our experiences, across the nation, are similar. The 2001 folks are correct; Apple originally paid well, and hired knowledgeable folks that considered ARS a career. Especially the Genii. Now ARS is a career only for management, everyone else is passing through like seasonal Abercrombie employees.

We were all expendable, because there was always some Apple devotee willing to work for peanuts waiting in the wings. People speak of the “Apple tax” when buying computers, but there was also one working for the company. ARS figured out the capitalistic truth, simply that there was no reason to pay people well if they could hire people for a hair above what In N’ Out Burger pays ($10 an hour to start, btw).

To the morons insisting that “You knew what this was,” that people can leave if they wish, you’re missing the point. Yes, of course people can leave. But that doesn’t make the behavior of ARS okay. ARS was supposed to be different.

As others have pointed out, my disgust for ARS comes especially from the one-hour-below-full-time health care scam, straight from the Walmart playbook. Isn’t Al Gore on the board? Why is this acceptable? I worked with a girl who had a crippling disorder, but one that could have been helped with surgery. Management told her, point blank, that if she didn’t have *blank* disease, she would have been promoted to full time! Why she did not sue, is beyond me. Our employees are our greatest resource? I’d like to shove that credo card up Ron and Steve’s ass. You lied to us. You acted like Walmart and filled your stores with Gap, Disney Store, and Crocs managers, ignoring what it means to truly think different. You had it right when you started, but you were corrupted by the bottom line.

It took me 2 years after leaving before I could enter a store again, before I could recapture the some of the joy of being a customer of the computer company that was different, one that inspires devotees to be tattooed for god’s sake. I love the products, I always have. Marketing or not, they stand for something. The stores, they only stand for broken dreams of changing the world.

I’m incredibly nervous to leave this post, namely because of the sort of fear that is inspired in us (even, it seems, in people who are long gone from an ARS), but I just had to chime in. To the naysayers, I have no words. It’s not worth it as it’s already been explained numerous times above.

To my fellow employees current or past: It made me incredibly sad to read this. I remember starting and being so full of energy and was so excited to help anyone and everyone I could. I wanted to learn, learn, learn and become as knowledgeable as some of my new colleagues. I had always loved going to an ARS because it seemed like such a unique experience, and I was always told that I was so lucky to work here, that we were part of a special group.

And we were. A lot of my colleagues are some of the most amazing people I’ve ever met – so I give Apple credit for grouping us in one place, but not for knocking us down and making us feel like if we try just that much harder we might be better, we might actually do something. For being insulted by people on a consistent basis and being told to suck it up. For being given tasks we shouldn’t be doing, to doing roles that are not our own and not getting paid for them because moving us to that position would be a higher pay scale and that’s not something they were willing to do.

For being told we don’t even work at Apple by higher ups, we’re just some retail peons and that Apple is Corporate – we’re just the workhorses.

And, especially, for making incredibly hard-working friends cry because one of those “little chats” made them feel like everything they’d done was worth nothing.

That I can’t forgive.

I am so tired of all you complainers. I worked at Apple for a number of years and loved the overall experience.

To all of you arrogant fools who think you were “overqualified” for the job, but weren’t hired I have some news for you. You weren’t hired because you lacked personality and most likely lacked good hygiene. I’ve interviewed plenty of you and you need to learn how to interact with people beyond a chat room, take showers regularly, and try not to give off the creeper vibe.

To all of you think you were underpaid, Apple usually pays $2-3 more than most RETAIL jobs. Apple also invest thousands of dollars into training for the Geniuses and Creatives. Apple also pays for certifications which no IT job is willing to do. If you think you deserve to be making $30-40 an hour, you’re fooling yourself. You’re not worth that much.

The problem is everyone sees the registers ringing and they think to themselves, “I deserve a larger piece of this pie.” You don’t. You didn’t invent the product, you didn’t produce it, you didn’t market it, and you’re not pouring capital into it to sell it. You show up to work every day and people walk in and hand you money. Apple does such a good job of bringing customers in to the ARS that all you have to do is help the customer get the product. Go ask a Best Buy employee how hard they have to hustle to sell a computer, warranty, $50 USB cables, install fees, and all that other BS..

Bully is very common at London flag ship store by middle management. Since I have been there the high turn around of staff coming and go due to ASM’s also bully.

Sounds wrong but if your black or asian will suffer the most.

To:”Tired of the Complainers:
If you loved it so much, how come you’re not still at Apple. Did they not love you back the same way?
I agree that if you want to make more money, get professional certification and start your own business, there’s plenty of work. It’s not Apple’s obligation to pay you more than the going rate.
But after years of work at Apple in management, there is no doubt to me that there is significant abuse by upper management, and that corporate knows and does nothing.
I guarantee anyone who stays long enough will be on the receiving end. It’s built into the business model and is tacitly endorsed by HR up to and including Ron.

I hear that the WalkOut was averted. Anybody know how the problems were resolved?

I worked at an Apple Store for close to 3 years, and my last 3 months were hell. The manager from another store took over and slowly brought his people over, and pushed all of us out. Literally made it unbearable to work there.

One manager physically assaulted a friend and fellow employee, I think he should sue them. He’s no longer there, but I know it plagues him. The management team there now is the worst I’ve ever experienced.

I’ve got stories of Gappers (Former Gap Managers) brought in, because they rarely promote managers from within. These idiots don’t know anything about Apple, or any proper philosophy of management. One of them actually had sexual relations with one of the staff, she’s a complete moron.

I’ll never step foot in that store again, and it seems to be a trend for their new stores to hire morons. At least maybe they could hire people who know how to use a Mac.

Kawasaki,
Thank you for responding to Pirate. I couldn’t say it better myself. I won’t waste any more time responding to an Apple Manager who is no better than the one’s that I shat on when I left Apple and went on to make much more money than they do now (yes, I actually know how to use and service a Mac).
Footnote: There are great managers at Apple who suffer in silence. You know who you are. Look for a job that has a Fortune rating.
It’s really sad that such a fine product manufacturer like Apple, has an employment record that’s so tainted.

I am a former employee of almost 2 years. My intial experience was pleasant but I’m sure that was somewhat subject to the rabid internal propaganda the company uses. A change of management resulted in a turn for the worse. I recall numerous complaints from employee’s about unprofessional behavior and clique-games started by new managers. Furthermore, I noticed a huge turn in customer satisfaction. In fact, you could count on a manager to take a slight problem and turn it into a debacle. For example, I’ve had numerous customers who would give a bratty attitude and a manager could easily diffuse the situation by doing a POS override or “open box swap” and they would deny it. I’ve seen managers turn people away just before closing hours for people who wanted to purchase something small (charger, cable, osx disc, headphones) and when they would exhibit that they were upset manager would laugh while saying “sorry” and closing and locking the door behind them.

I’ve stood by on several occasions as the store manager and senior assistant manager were accused by customers of being “rude”, “detached”.

My experience with corporate would lead me to use the same words as these disgruntled customers.

I have made a huge turn from being Apple fanboy who was happy to work and help people to believing/realizing that Apple and it’s products are no more special than any other corporate machine on the planet.

If I started the personal attacks, I apologize. That isn’t the intent to this forum. However, you hit a hot spot with the mention of organized labor and unions. As much as I resent the way I too was treated by ARS, I’d hate to see the stores all close if there was any attempt to bring such nonsense to the stores.

Also, I certainly realize that as this forum’s comments have grown, it’s been increasingly bitter towards Apple. So, as a former GM, not a Specialist or MG, I have somehow become the bad guy. Allow me to make several short points so we can align a bit:

1. I am aghast by comments and experiences you have seen. I’m terrified that anyone in one of my stores might have been treated is such a way.

2. Not being a former clothing manager, I was as frustrated as you all were with some of the poor management decisions and promotions. Since I wasn’t from soft-lines retail, I wasn’t part of the manager-in-crowd at Apple. So, for me, being a manager sucked as much as being an hourly employee.

3. The only ways in which I would defend Apple are that it’s in essence a relatively new retail chain stuck within a highly secretive organization with customers who have unrealistic expectations. Most of the managers and employees I dealt with on a daily basis wanted to provide an awesome Apple experience to customers and employees. As you all know, there were many barriers to making this possible much of the time.

Hope you all have a great weekend. Aren’t we all glad that if nothing else, our time with Apple looks great on a resume and has led us to bigger and better things. Plus, the products still rock.

I’ve been out of Apple for 2 years and I’m still nervous about posting a comment anywhere about my horrible experiences. I’ve got stories that will make your balls shrivel to the size of raisins.

@pirate

Get off of your Apple Hight Horse. If management didn’t mistreat the people who report to them, then there would never be a need to organize unions. It’s not ok to abuse people!

I’ve read, and concur with all the stories I’ve read here, and it gives me a knot in my stomach. I don’t want to give any detail because I know Apple mangers who watch IFO boards, and I know they are looking for people to identify. It’s a joke to them.

The sad thing? I still care about the people I used to work with, the front line employees who are passionate about the products. I’d go back to Apple in a minute if it could be the way it was years ago. Where they didn’t care if you were fat, too skinny, had different anything about you. It’s what made them special. Now they are turning into Best Buy Big Box Retail. Ron Johnson, you are to blame as well as Steve Jobs, and it trickles down to the Regional, Store Management “team”.

Without presenting any characteristic verbage, I will leave with one final note. I hope it is made quite public in the media outlets, and something drastic is done to change Apple. You’ve got a great thing in the people who used to work for you, and now all you have left is a bunch of rotten apples.

You think Seattle is bad, try New Jersey. A new manager came to the area about a year ago, since then we have lost four of our managers. It’s no wonder why people are walking out next weekend. I think we all should do this.

What if at noon on Saturday we all walked out?

@Joe

Current employees are told not to post on any message boards relating to Apple Computers or they will be fired. This is a selection of mostly former employees, and it’s over 55 pages in length thus far.

Choices? You want people to believe you can just transfer stores? Bullshit.

You should be fired for posting here. I hope they catch and fire you. One less bad apple at the Apple Store. Care to furnish your real name?

Come on Joe. What are you afraid of? You can always transfer stores…

HOW TO BE AN APPLE STORE MANAGER

The easiest way to become a store manager at a cutting-edge technology company such as Apple is to:

a) not know a fucking thing about anything Apple makes or has ever made
b) forgo going to college because developing your mind and educating yourself means that you’re already over-qualified and probably too resistant to the brain-washing and hollowing process
c) work for Gap or Williams & Sonoma… because we can all see how those establishments bear any relevance to the goings on at an Apple retail store.
d) It helps if while at these other retailers, you were accused of sexual discrimination/harassment or were found to be guilty of mistreating your workers or, better yet, stealing
e) If you’re an internal promotion from the ranks of the creatives, concierge, genii or specialists then you can go ahead and skip step C and A and instead what you’ll be required to possess is an alarming dissociative disorder and the ability to forget what it’s like to “give a shit”. You will actually need to rid yourself of that pesky conscience and effectively become a hollow shell of your former self. All of your friends will grow to hate you but it’s okay, You’ll get that bonus. They’ll soon forgive you for fucking with their schedules and not allowing them to take full-lunch breaks. They may even forgive you for ratting them out to the GM when y

If you can handle this list then you’re obviously well suited for the job of Apple Store Manager.

Your first DOR (Division of Responsibility: Apple’s code name for “the shit we do in the office when we’re really supposed to be managing the sales floor”) when the hiring process is completed is to get trained by someone who is older and smarter than you. His job will be to teach you all of the things you already should have known. Then what you will do is immediately put this person on your shit-list for being smarter and more capable than yourself. Watch this person like a hawk. After all, he is probably more qualified to do your job. Just look at him! He’s been working here for years and really knows his stuff and all of the other employees really respect him. Yep! He’s a threat!

Okay, your first real job is to be the “People Leader”. Even though you aren’t at all capable of comprehending what makes a “good Apple employee” you will be tasked with promptly finding more idiots like yourself because the last batch of full-time specialists got better jobs elsewhere, got married or ran off to do more fulfilling things with their lives. Sucks for you. You actually need to work! And you thought you were going to just coast for a few months. Oh well! In three months, you will rotate duties. Maybe you’ll get lucky and be the “Ops Leader”!

As the “Ops Leader” what you’ll do is micro-manage the Inventory department among other things. This a department that actually micro-manges themselves so your presence is not required but you’ll assert your authority anyhow with little to no regard for how idiotic you look. That’ll show em who’s boss, right? Maybe what you’ll do is try to “stream-line” a process that doesn’t need fixing just because you’re feeling a little left-out. Well, how could you not! I mean, look around. All of your subordinates are doing their jobs and they really don’t need you around. They can actually interpret spreadsheets and find variances and trends. It makes you feel dumb doesn’t it? Should have gone to college, huh. Oh well. It doesn’t matter. You’re off to a great start!

Pretty soon, all of the people carrying your ass will move on and leave you holding the bag. So what you’ll do is become more enraged at your lack of skill and ability and lash out at others. More than likely you’ll develop a perverse addiction or two. You can take your pick; Caffeine, cocaine, nicotine. Anything to make your job look more stressful than it really is!

Pretty soon a new crop of shittier managers will fall in behind you making you look better by default. And THAT’S the surefire way to get noticed and promoted to store manager; being the manager who looks the LEAST inept.

Welcome to Apple Retail! We enrich lives!

@how to be a manager

You nailed it with detail.

How to be a Manager:
If you weren’t happy at Apple (duh)? i think you have a grand future as a satirist. What you wrote was spot on and really funny. We’re you talking about Brian Rizzi? Oh wait, there’s a thousand of him..Ha.

As I said before, what a bunch of whiners. Pay at the Apple Store is considerably higher than other comparable retail jobs – and in fact higher than a number of skilled manufacturing jobs in some parts of the country.

Apparently, what we’re seeing is a bunch of juveniles who never had to deal with the real world and now have to face the fact that Mommy and Daddy aren’t going to supply all their needs and the world isn’t going to bow down to their every whim.

Grow up.

@Joe “Anonymous”

Come on Joe, what store do you work at? What’s your name? You have nothing to fear from Apple, right?

Pay at the Apple Store is not considerably higher, you’re a liar, and for the millions some employees sell for Apple, their pittance of a wage is nonsense, as the managers make a great deal off of the sweat and labor of us “whiners”.

If in the “real world” you mean, abusive, self-centered, empty-headed, narcissistic jerks for a management team, then maybe a class action law suit will bring the Real World to your doorstep.

I’m in. They can have my testimony, and I’ll pull in everyone I used to work with as well as security tapes for various incidents dating back to 2005.

You like Apples Joe?
How about them Apples.

@Joe

You never worked at Apple? That explains everything. You don’t know anything.

Joe,

You still wouldn’t get hired at Apple. I’ve seen quite a few resumes rejected, and they stand out above your “experience”. As a matter of fact, I would view your “experience” as a detriment.

As for my experience. It’s none of your business, except to say it’s deeper than yours.

Joe,

I’m a consultant now, and as for my Apple experience, it’s nobody’s business on this thread, and I would reveal my anonymity by expanding beyond that. I do ok. :)

This just goes to show, you don’t have a clue. Everyone whom has worked for Apple will concur with what I have stated.

Now, what the hell are you doing in this thread? You don’t have anything of value to add.

Please don’t feed the trolls.

FTA: October 3rd

How to be an apple store manager:

Wow. Way to go! There’s a picture of you next to the word “prejudiced” in the dictionary. You attempt to extend your personal experience to 250+ stores and all managers who work for Apple, and you sound completely incredible (as in not-credible) in doing so.

YOU try being responsible for any of those areas of responsibility in a multi-million dollar store. Your descriptions of what those managers do sound like the rantings of a 12 year-old who’s pissed off at his parents, which only cements my opinion of the babies who post here. You haven’t the slightest idea of the responsibilities involved in running an Apple Store. My store did nearly $40M/year. Somehow you think that a manager shouldn’t be directly involved in the inventory processes involved in running such a massive business in a relatively small retail store? Your definition of ’streamlined’ and mine most certainly would not jibe.

Even if, somehow, every one of your managers actually id act the way you describe, it’s quite a stretch for you to extend that to the entire operation across 250+ stores.

You’re just another immature fool who thinks he knows everything. That’s clear from your descriptions of your own managers, and you’re angry that you were never put in those positions so that you could show THEM how to do it. Good luck in the future – you’re gonna need it.

Joe

“BTW – “Joe anonymous” and I are two different people.”

I will confirm that.

As for the whiners, I’d be curious about what they think is ‘fair’.

I’d wager something like $25 per hour to start, guaranteed 10% annual raises, no pressure to sell anything, no expectations that they add enough value to cover their salary, no demands that they do anything unpleasant, breaks whenever they want, no fixed work hours (too restraining), no manager telling them what to do, and even if there were a manager, they should make half of what the stock clerks make since the manager isn’t adding any value.

At least that’s the way it looks from all the whining here.

Ok everyone. Let’s just step back and take a breath.

The personal attacks must stop. It dilutes the importance of this thread.

Those attacking the store Managers and Apple please refrain from personal attacks, calling someone a jerk, etc.. It proves nothing other than that you have run out of constructive arguments and at that point should probably leave the thread because you have lost your ability to argue on the points. I’m on your side guys. But getting personal accomplishes nothing and only plays into what the store management and Apple want us to do, discredit ourselves. Strangely enough, this is exactly what they did in the stores, rile you up and get you angry so you do or say something stupid which gives them the reason they need to discredit and shitcan you. Does the tactic sound familiar? You guys are falling for it.

So before you walk into it again, take a breath and realize that we are still right. Because no matter what a manager argues here, none of them seem to be able to properly argue or explain why they continue to engage in illegal and abusive activity.

For the Managers who are posting here, if the only arguments you can come up with are to respond with insults as well, then you are proving yourselves to be the people we have described you to be….

I’m trying to be fair reading this thread because, yes, I have never been in a manager position in the stores. So I/we don’t know what kind of pressure you are under or your point of view. So why don’t you try to explain it to us and help us understand instead of responding with childish insults. Here’s your opportunity to get the respect that you feel you’re not getting here. Make an argument and let’s see what happens..

Now with my comments so far:

I have not heard one argument that makes the illegal treatment of the employees make sense, other than that these are tried and true techniques that have proven to make a retail chain profitable. But aren’t there legal ways to do it? Is this what you want to be your personal legacy at Apple. “Well, I broke every law in the labor 101 manual and became the most despised individual among those I worked with. But at least I made a lot of money…” Criminal and tyrant..Is that what you wanted to be? I hope it’s worth it. I mean that sincerely. Because when the money is gone, that’s all you will have left behind..

So , let’s put one thing out there to begin with. Apple is breaking numerous labor laws all over the country with their treatment of employees, which, by the way, may also include managers.. The fact that no manager here has even tried to deny it tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong…

In addition, the bad managers know how they are treating their employees. So again, what justifies it? Is there no more positive way to get what you need from your employees without engaging in these tactics? Are you so under pressure to deliver that you have adopted an “at any cost” attitude of the ends justifying the means?

I honestly don’t know the answer to these questions, which is why I am asking because I never truly understood why my managers did the things they did. Not everyone that got canned was a bad employee. But I know that A LOT of people who had their career at Apple cut short were model employees and did a great job.

I have since moved on and currently run my own company and have my own employees. We can’t afford to pay our people a lot. But I can tell you, now that I am a boss, that positively motivating and genuinely inspiring your employees can make up for a lot of other shortcomings, such as low pay and long hours instead of using fear, lies and intimidation. I know it’s harder than doing it other way. But doing the right thing usually is..

What I do hear from the defenders of management in this thread is to get real, get some life experience and get an education and another job if we wanted to make more money and get more respect.. So I will address that…

If you really did read this thread, you will see that this is part of what Apple offered. Lots of opportunities for advancement, good pay and great treatment. “Our people are our most valued resource” or something like that is what I recall.

I will tell you that many people genuinely believed these promises and left perfectly good careers based on the assurances that Apple made to them. You prefer to paint us as bottom of the ladder types who took the Apple job because it was between that and truck driving school. If that’s how you honestly think, than you really aren’t listening (again…)

People actively chose to come here because they were told they were going to be part of something new, a different way of doing things, reinventing retail.. We didn’t make this stuff up in our heads… This was what we were told and what we believed in. So, by telling us to grow up, etc. etc.., you admit that all this was a lie and that people were swindled into their jobs. And then you further assert that we should have known this all along. I think the sheer amount of people who have posted on this thread demonstrate that Apple proactively, knowingly and intentionally deceived us about what the job was; but it was our fault for believing it? If that was the reality, then you also must admit it is a pretty lousy thing to take advantage of someone like that. Maybe you are exactly the people you are being painted out to be..at least it appears that way..

And the “you can just leave” argument has been addressed above. So I won’t go into discussing that.

Your efforts to justify your deception, the treatment of those whose careers you steered into the ground due to petty differences and your complete indifference to the existence of these truths (I have heard no apologies from anyone even though everyone admits this is happening) demonstrates Apple’s attitude towards their employees and quite adequately legitimizes the complaints made here.

I think it is time for some sort of labor authority to step in. Because Apple either is intentionally fostering this environment or is being criminally indifferent to it, either of which is, again, against the law.

I hope Apple is listening. Because, eventually something will happen.. And it won’t be good for them…. You can’t NDA this thing away forever. Too many people have been hurt by this…. I predict it is only the beginning of something much bigger coming…. So – to Apple – make it right while you still can…

Well said, ex-McG, especially the point about people leaving perfectly good careers to work at Apple on the promise that there was more in their future than selling, only to find out later that promotions were few and far between and that they had a better chance of winning the lottery than landing a job at Corporate.

Back to the point of why the problem is so systemic…my theory on why this is a systemic problem is that GMs are motivated by two things: their desire to please by hitting the company’s aggressive metric goals, and money. Both are fairly simple motivations to understand; if they’re successful at meeting those goals they stand a better chance of getting promoted, if they don’t there’s probably a lot of explaining to do. Likewise, they have a financial stake in the store’s performance by way of their bonus structure.

Most managers probably start out with good intentions, but succumb to the pressure at some point and resort to at-any-cost tactics to get what the results Apple is looking for. If you look at the metric requirements Apple sets for the stores (50% One-to-One, 25% Mobile Me, etc), and the bare bones staffing most busy stores have, and it’s easy to see the pressure building up quick.

So maybe the problem isn’t strictly with the GM’s, but with Apple Retail as a whole. As I understand it, the original aim of the stores was to promote the brand and give customers the best shopping experience in the computer industry. Somewhere along the way it seems like Ron Johnson and company lost sight of that goal. Now Apple Retail is all about profit per square foot, selling attachments that a lot of customers don’t need or want because they’re profitable. In short, money became the goal rather than a byproduct of good service. And with that, Apple Retail became no more different than any other big box chain.

ex-MG:

“I honestly don’t know the answer to these questions, which is why I am asking because I never truly understood why my managers did the things they did. Not everyone that got canned was a bad employee. But I know that A LOT of people who had their career at Apple cut short were model employees and did a great job.”

Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what happens behind closed doors. You’d be amazed at how many people we fired for various reasons. Mostly it was policy violations like attendance. Next was known theft.

You also need to remember that many states are “at will” states, which means your employer needs NO reason to terminate your employment. Typically, Apple will follow their P&P to the letter to help ensure they don’t get sued for firing you, at will or not.

“So , let’s put one thing out there to begin with. Apple is breaking numerous labor laws all over the country with their treatment of employees, which, by the way, may also include managers.. The fact that no manager here has even tried to deny it tells me that they know what they are doing is wrong…”

And what have you done about that? Did you contact HR? Did you speak to your managers? If you didn’t, that’s on you, and no one else. If you feared reprisal, again that’s on YOU. It’s your responsibility to be sure you’re treated right. If you’re too scared to do so, then you need to grow up.

“You have no business commenting in this thread”

I see. So this thread is exclusively for people who agree with you?

That’s BS – and is one further sign that you lack the maturity to discuss this.

I’m getting tired of hearing about all the labor law violations, as well. Why is it that no one can be specific? Why has no one filed a complaint? Filing a complaint for labor law violations is simple – and doesn’t cost a penny. It can be done anonymously, too. Why haven’t any been filed?

There are many thousands of Apple Store employees. The fact that a few want to whine about working conditions is hardly news. As soon as there’s some evidence that there’s a REAL problem rather than some whining, feel free to present it.

So the bottom line is that Apple is guilty until proven innocent, right?

Where’s the evidence? What we have is a handful of people whining anonymously on a forum – but who don’t have the gumption to even post an anonymous complaint with the government. No evidence, no facts, just “big, bad old Apple manager treated me badly”.

And when anyone asks for facts, they get accused of acting like a rapist or they’re told they have no business posting.

Again, there is no doubt that there some bad managers at Apple just like any major retailer. But there’s not one shred of evidence that Apple is as bad as the rest – and certainly none that they’re worse.

Amazing.

former employee:

You may be confusing me with Joe Anonymous. I never said I didn’t work for Apple. I was a manager for nearly 5 years.

I don’t really care what you say you’ve seen. No one gets fired for being 2 minutes late. Say what you want, but unless you provide the paperwork that shows that, it’s all conjecture and hearsay. The people I fired for attendance issues were all chronic, just as it should be if you’re going down that road. Warning after warning – some people simply cannot get to work, or school, or anywhere on time. And that’s too bad for them. It’s too bad they were never called out on it at school, and if they were, it’s too bad that their parents called the school to bail them out by lying for them. That doesn’t work when you have a job.

I was telling ex-MG that HE doesn’t know what goes on behind closed doors, because he wasn’t a manager. I was. Is it YOU who needs to keep up? Or simply read more carefully? People who get fired rarely admit it when it’s their fault and tell all kinds of stories to make themselves feel better.

sumguy:

Blaming the victim? Geez, and I though I was a bleeding heart liberal. I simply advised that people need to stand up for themselves. If they don’t have the cajones to do so and stay in bad situations, they deserve what they get.

All I’ve heard here is conjecture. Let’s hear some real stories and see if they make any sense, or if it’s just a bunch of whiners. Leave out the names, but give specifics – real specifics. Dates, times, what was said, what the context was, etc. I defy anyone to do so here.

This has gotten really vitriolic and unproductive.

I am tempted to reply to some of the blanket personal attacks against former employees or the whole “if you didn’t stop it, you deserved it” thing, because the baiting is so well-done, but it’s still just baiting. It’s not worth it.

However:

This thread is -not- an appropriate place to reveal specific dates, times, details. Those of us posting have left Apple, and most have put it all in our past. We made our choices, we are gone. Whether we reported things to HR, corporate or the government is irrelevant; we have no current claims. This is the past.

The -only reason- that anyone has shared their stories is to help define what the Alderwood store -might- be referring to as “abuse.” Someone asked, several people answered. It’s almost unheard of for ex-employees to really share this stuff; the fear of reprisal is still there, though it’s hard to imagine what Apple would do about it. I’m not sure if they can sue or not. Maybe. Who knows. Apple doesn’t seem afraid of suing over chatter on fan sites.

At the least, some of us still have fondness or respect for our co workers and management in spite of it all. Reference: The past. Some of us may have gotten over it, but it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and that we are required to either be silent about it or overly specific/activist about it. I’m not interested in bringing every detail to light or attempting to obtain some kind of retribution, and I am even less interested in opening myself up to more trouble from something long done.

That’s a battle for current employees to fight on their own, in the proper venues. If an entire store is actually so unhappy they’re planning a walk-out, then I can only surmise it’s more than just a few whiners. A few whiners with invalid complaints rarely have the influence to do this. That is, if it is true. There has been no confirmation. Anybody involved would be wise to hold their tongue and not post their information here. Anyone not involved has already moved on.

This is turning into a ridiculous childish argument with lots of finger pointing and accusations. If you don’t believe what has been posted, you have made that clear. We understand you do not believe. We comprehend your attacks. Thank you for your input. To the rest of us, there’s no reason for anyone to continue attempting to defend yourselves or answer to anonymous demands for details that may be much more trouble than they’re worth to provide. You will not change their minds – they are already ignoring whatever they don’t want to hear.

Likewise, for clarity, none of appear to be demanding Apple answer to -us- for anything. Realistically, we can’t ask for it even if we wanted to and Apple has no responsibility or reason to act in our favor.

I think all any of us ever wanted to do was to show our support for current employees who may be doing exactly what we did not have the courage or energy to do. I still support Apple and the retail stores and have high hopes for their continued success; I want this success to apply to the employees as well.